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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 28, 2018 21:33:48 GMT
Adam, hello! Yes, with the place Taicri is quite incomprehensible. I asked my colleagues for a reply, but no one gave it yet. Personally, I think so, which place had this name in the communist times of the USSR and is now called otherwise. The second, more likely option is such a place, remote from settlements, without an official name and called Taicri by the local population. I have in my collection Parnassius tianschanicus with label data which, like you do not have on the internet and on maps, Kyrgyzstan, Banaua Ushinghir, 07.1994. I thought for a long time about what this place is and where it is, and one day I was prompted by a man who knows Kyrgyzstan well. It turns out that Banaua Ushinghir is a small town, like a canyon in the Jalal-Abad region. The Kozho-Ata river flows in the reserve, it dries up in hot years, and in the place where it dries, 50 km from the reserve is this place, when the rainy years are flooded with the flood of the river, that is, it simply does not exist. It's probably more like Banavuy-Kul-Yushinga. So it seems that Taicri is a similar place, but it is necessary to find out from people who know Baikal well. Adam, I thought that the subspecies guttmanni is invalid. In literature, I met this name only once, now I do not even remember which author. You could tell me more about it. My sample from Yakutsk was with the label p. m. aliaska but I think this is incorrect because in Russia p. m. aliaska lives much north east. Kurensov in his work (Bulavous Lepidoptera of the Far East of the USSR in 1970) resulted in the territory of Yakutsk P. m. asiatica. Why asiatica is completely incomprehensible to me! Adam, do you have a complete list of subspecies, synonyms and homonyms valid at the moment? In my list for example guttmanni is not present but there is P. m. taliensis which as you explained are nomen nudum.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 29, 2018 11:07:19 GMT
The problem with Taicri is we don't know which side or end of Lake Baikal it is, so we don't know if guttmanni came from north, south or east of the lake. I hope that you can find the answer from one of your contacts.
Papilio machaon guttmanni was validly described by Seyer, 1976 (Mitt. ent. Ges. Basel (N.F.), 26(4): 112, f. 74-76 )
Here is a translation from the German, kindly made for me by Kurt Lechner:
1.7.4 n. ssp. guttmanni Seyer, 1976, mostly only one generation, but in suitable years a partial second generation. Distribution: Around Lake Baikal. but presumably also on the upper course of Lena and Angara (reservoir). Type Locality: Taicri, Lake Baikal. Description: male forewing length Holotype = 42 mm (I. Gen.), Paratype = 44 mm (II. Gen.) The Holotype is very similar to the I. Gen. of P. m. ussuriensis. He is a little larger and the black colour of the veins is weaker. On the opposite the Paratype = II. Gen. is considerably smaller than the summer generation of P. m. ussuriensis. Looking at the genital armatures a close relationship of n. ssp. guttmanni to ussuriensis is clearly visible, although the recent distribution is absolutely isolated inside the orientis subgroup. I dedicate this n. ssp. to my young colleague Dipl. Biol. RAINER GUTTMANN. I am indebted to him for the numerous pictures of specimens in this revision which he did very well and willingly due to his skill and big interest so to speak with much love for this object and effordable work. He also offered to produce colour slides in order to have material for an eventual slide show. When I will get back the remaining abdomens from Prague, which I am waiting for vainly very long, I too will start this project thanks Mr. GUTMANN's word after gluing them. To the description I would like to supplement that the wing underside of the I. Generation has the typical black of the Asians. In specimens of the II. Generation this black colouring is only very weakly toned down. That may be a reason for placing n. ssp. schapiroi into the subgroup ussurienis, which I did provisionally.
From the description it seems that Seyer treated all the populations around Lake Baikal as belonging to ssp. guttmanni.
I think that in Russia ssp. aliaska is only found on the Chukotka Peninsula around Lavrentiya. Specimens from Yakutia may look a little similar, but I don't think they belong to that subspecies.
I think that Kurensov must have misinterpreted the type locality of asiatica (Himalaya and Kamchatka) to mean everywhere inbetween as well.
I do have a list, but don't really want to post it publicly right now, because it is an ongoing research project subject to change whenever new information is available. If you want to ask about particular names I can answer those. For nomina nuda, to start with all the Eller (1939) names are not validly described, unlike those named in his 1936 work.
Most Verity names are infrasubspecific and unavailable. The following 3 Verity machaon names are available: mauretanica Verity, 1905, orientis Verity, 1911, emisphyrus Verity, 1919. All other names are unavailable, mainly because they are infrasubspecific.
Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 30, 2018 16:57:42 GMT
Hello Adam!
Probably North or North East but I will try to find out about Taichi for sure. Adam, thank you for your clarification on p. m. guttmann, I found the same thing in my documents. In General, the Northern subspecies are quite interesting, the same Kurentsov in 1970 wrote about Kamchatka and the Koryak land and pointed out that from Kamchatka to the North there is a mass of transitional forms.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 30, 2018 19:26:08 GMT
Here are photos of the holotype and paratype of guttmanni from Seyer, 1976. Sorry about the poor quality reproduction: My Buryatia, Chita and Lena River specimens (3rd photo above) are similar to these. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 30, 2018 22:52:22 GMT
Adam, what is the minimum and maximum wingspan Of your gutmann from Buryatia, Chita, and the Lena river? The holotype and paratype has been impressive in comparison with my 55 mm from Yakutsk.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 31, 2018 10:40:09 GMT
Maksim,
Photo 3 above, left column from top wingspans (cm.): 6.0, 5.7, 6.2, 5.9 2nd column, Lena River: 5.8, 4.7, 5.8, 6.2, 5.6 3rd column, Ust'-Nera: 5.7, 5.2, 5.4, 5.5, 4.9, 5.3, 5.4 Photo 2, top right, E of Kultuk: 6.7.
Of course wingspan is not really an accurate measure of size as it depends on the angle and height that the wings are spread at. A much better measurement is forewing length, from base to tip.
Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 31, 2018 13:03:17 GMT
Thank you Adam!
You are absolutely right that an accurate measurement is made by a long wing. But it is also clear that your samples as well as mine from Yakutsk are much smaller in size than the holotype and paratype presented.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 31, 2018 13:21:53 GMT
Yes, you are right, even the 1st generation holotype is larger than my specimens, although my Kultuk specimen is close to that size.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 2, 2018 22:06:24 GMT
This might also be of interest to readers in the US/Canada, since although these specimens are from Russia they belong to ssp aliaska, the same subspecies as found in Alaska and NW Yukon. These specimens come from Lavrentiya on the Chukotka Peninsula, opposite the westernmost tip of Alaska. Adam.
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Post by Paul K on Aug 3, 2018 1:04:53 GMT
This may sounds hard to believe but I don’t have any P.machaon in my collection.
I have collected two or three specimens back in Poland before I moved to Canada and my father was bringing my colllection with him later. He visited local museum in Wroclaw to check if he would need some export permits. The guy seating there said that P.machaon is protected and can not be export. He removed them from my box.
Here in Ontario one ssp.hudsonianus inhabits northern part near Hudson Bay but there are no roads to get there and the only way is by rail. I am always afraid that I would go there too early or too late of the very short flight season.
Paul
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 11, 2018 12:00:28 GMT
I moved all the posts about breeding machaon to a new thread in the Insect rearing and breeding section here: collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2477As well as keeping the topic relevant it may come to the attention of people more interested in breeding. Let's keep discussion in this thread about the subspecies of P. machaon. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Aug 21, 2018 10:23:06 GMT
Well, actually here are the samples of Russia, Belgorod region, near the town of Gubkin, 20.06.2018 (оvo) 02-06.08.2018 (imago)
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Aug 28, 2018 12:00:14 GMT
Adam, hello!
And you do not have a more detailed description of the subspecies guttmanni? Maybe a photo of the page from the book?
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Aug 28, 2018 16:45:14 GMT
I mean the name of the work in which Seyer described the subspecies guttmanni.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 28, 2018 16:58:40 GMT
Unfortunately Imgur is down at the moment. I have been trying to log-in to post the page with the description for a while, but the website says it is "overloaded or in maintenance, try later".
The citation is:
Seyer, H. 1976. Versuch einer Revision der Papilio machaon-subspezies in der Oestlichen Palaarktis. 2. Teil und Schluss. Mitteilungen der Entomologischen Gesellschaft Basel, N.F. 26(4): 97-145.
The description of guttmanni is on page 112. I will post a copy when Imgur is up again.
Adam.
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