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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 20, 2018 18:04:03 GMT
Hurray! It worked!
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 20, 2018 20:33:44 GMT
Oh! Here they Are Swedish machaon! Adam, here's a photo my friend shared. Please note that females of the summer generation of the Leningrad region and Belarus is quite similar outward signs, and as dramatically different from the females in the Moscow region. If I am not mistaken Euler cited the territory of Belarus as the probable border of sp.machaon and ssp. gorganus. Once again, please note that I can be wrong. In any case, very soon I will be given a good series of samples of the Moscow and Vladimir regions, so we will compare them with your ssp. gorganus.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 22, 2018 12:46:34 GMT
Friends, Hello! The camera was broken, but now look at the photos that started this topic. Thanks to them I learned new remarkable people!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 22, 2018 18:18:34 GMT
Ah, yes, thanks for posting better photos and more specimens of the 1st generation venchuanus from Deqen, NW Yunnan. The Arkhangelsk, Chashcha and Pskov specimens do look more like ssp. machaon. Here is a snapshot of my specimens from Polar Ural (nr. Kharp) (left column males, middle column females) and Putorana Plateau, Taymyr (right column): The Polar Ural specimens are known as lapponicus but in reality that is a synonym of ssp. machaon from Finland. These might actually be something else. The Taymyr population is very interesting, coming from so far north. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 25, 2018 19:54:12 GMT
Unfortunately in my collection there are no samples of the Polar Urals except for one female of very poor quality. Once upon a time squared in the comparison of the phenotype. unfortunately none of my friends are not in the polar Urals and the samples are not on sale.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 25, 2018 20:10:14 GMT
Adam forgot to ask you. All the caterpillars cooked for me in Volgograd pupated and they are sent to me by parcel. The parcel will go about 7 - 10 days. All these pupae belong to the second generation and, accordingly, in the nature of the imago appear after about 14 days. If you put a few dolls in the fridge for a while, how does that affect the adults?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 25, 2018 22:11:33 GMT
If you put a few dolls in the fridge for a while, how does that affect the adults? Putting pupae in the fridge has no effect on the adult phenotype unless you do it straight after pupation, when the pupal skin is still not completely hard. Only soon after pupation does cold temperature have any effect on colour. However, it is possible to slow down development by putting pupae in the fridge for a few days, but since these pupae are not in diapause they MUST be removed as soon as they show any signs of starting to develop otherwise they will become crippled. In reality it is best not to try to slow them down unless necessary. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 25, 2018 23:36:42 GMT
Thank you Adam! I thought that experiment with temperature forms is possible only after pupation. In any case, I expect to get offspring in the future and conduct this experiment. Adam, do you have any similar temperature forms in your collection?
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 26, 2018 5:25:09 GMT
Adam!
I looked at Your photo of the Polar Urals and the Taimyr Peninsula. It is amazing how noticeable the intraspecific variability within the population and the predisposition of this group to the manifestation of aberration in the polar Urals. In some samples, the upper fork cell of the front wing is completely dark, which I have previously met very rarely. There are signs of two aberrations.
Very interesting samples from Taimyr, as I understand they are quite small in wingspan. Under the samples on the label I could read P. m. orientis. Adam, if I read it correctly, I think You might have the wrong definition of this subspecies. Externally, they have some visual similarity with orientis (marking of the sub-marginal ligation of the upper wing, darkening of the anal cell and a short tail of the wings) but similar signs are characteristic of other subspecies distributed further East of the Taimyr such as p. m. aliaska and P. m. kamtschadalus. but I'm not sure orientis can go that far North. I do not exclude the fact that perhaps this area is not properly studied and may contain some transitional taxa and forms. What do You think?
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 26, 2018 9:10:27 GMT
For experiments like this you must have hundreds of pupae stored in various conditions to know what is the best. Hello radusho! Yes, I agree with you that the number of dolls should be large enough. I plan to use offspring from two pairs of summer ssp generation. gorganus. Unfortunately I am not familiar with such experience so I think for the first time not to use a very large number of dolls. As I understand the conditions of the temperature shock should correspond to the possible natural anomalies and should not be protracted, for example, as it seems in 2000 in mid-June there were sharp frosts and ice crust on the ground kept about two days.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 26, 2018 16:30:49 GMT
Adam, do you have any similar temperature forms in your collection? Not deliberately made, no, but I do have an almost all yellow machaon gorganus I bred here many years ago. I'm not sure if this was actually just an aberration or temperature derived. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 26, 2018 16:37:38 GMT
Very interesting samples from Taimyr, as I understand they are quite small in wingspan. Under the samples on the label I could read P. m. orientis. Adam, if I read it correctly, I think You might have the wrong definition of this subspecies. Externally, they have some visual similarity with orientis (marking of the sub-marginal ligation of the upper wing, darkening of the anal cell and a short tail of the wings) but similar signs are characteristic of other subspecies distributed further East of the Taimyr such as p. m. aliaska and P. m. kamtschadalus. but I'm not sure orientis can go that far North. I do not exclude the fact that perhaps this area is not properly studied and may contain some transitional taxa and forms. What do You think? Yes, I don't think they really are orientis but that is the nearest similar subspecies so when I obtained them I just put that ssp. name on the labels as a temporary measure. They are very strange, and I don't think they are directly related either to aliaska or kamtschadalus. The similarity could be due to the extreme cold so far north. Have you seen machaon from Ust Nera, Yakutia? I have a series of those too, from one of the coldest places in the world. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 26, 2018 19:39:28 GMT
Adam, I saw on the Internet a posh photo of a yellow gorganus with your label of 20.07.1989. A great specimen of great value! Exactly the same sample is presented in one of the museums, now I do not remember in what, as papilio machaon form evitata. I also do not think that yours are directly related to m. alaska and even more so m. kamtschadalus, I only pointed to some common similarities caused most likely as you correctly noticed the cold climate. Samples from Kamchatka I have only 2 although they are currently on sale at a fairly affordable price, but, then there is no money to buy something that comes across something else. From Ust-Nera, Yakutia, no, I have not seen. I have one sample from the vicinity of Yakutsk with this label: Russia, Far East, Republic of Sakha (Yakutia), near the town of Yakutsk, the South-Western outskirts, 18.06.2003.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jul 26, 2018 19:43:32 GMT
Oh, by the way! Found this Museum photo.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 27, 2018 20:53:22 GMT
Here are photos of my orientis and specimens from the east of Siberia: I have a question about the type locality of guttmanni Seyer, 1976. It is stated as "UdsSR, Baikalsee, Taicri", but I cannot find a place called Taicri anywhere in Russia, never mind near Lake Baikal. Do you know where this place is? And here are my kamtschadalus:
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