|
|
Post by nomad on Feb 10, 2015 12:52:05 GMT
I might add, that many of the early collectors, succeeded in capturing only one specimen from which the species was first described. Even, O. alexandrae, the World's largest butterfly was described by Rothschild ( 1907) from one female shot by Meek. Among the Delias described from one specimen are Delias sacha ( Grose-Smith 1895 ) Delias inexpectata ( Rothschild 1915) and Delias wollastoni ( Rothschild 1915). All turned out to be good distinct species. I expect there are many others.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobw on Feb 10, 2015 15:41:27 GMT
It is now considered very bad practice to describe a species from a single specimen. It was a different story 100+ years ago when many species were still unknown; there aren't so many undescribed ones now. Something described from a single specimen (or even a few) could easily be an aberrant form of another species so the bigger the series the better.
Describing a subspecies from very few specimens is even worse as many individuals can fall within the range of variation of another subspecies. Subspecies should only be described from long series; when studying long series from different localities for the Colias book it became apparent that many described subspecies were merely synonyms. It's easy to see differences in short series; we looked at series of 50+ specimens from many different localities and it then became apparent that the range of variation was pretty much the same.
Bob
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Feb 10, 2015 16:10:13 GMT
Bob, Radovan, sure it is better to describe ssp and sp with a lot of material... there is no discussion on this point.  We are only saying that for tropical species, it can be impossible finding 20 males and 20 females. It is totally different for Colias or Parnassius. Is Delias cumanau a wrong species ? Should it remain undescribed waiting someone to find 10 others males and 20 females. I don't think so. Argyrolepidia palaea has been caught twice : once by Meek 100 years ago, one by me 5 years ago... fake species ? I don't think so. |
|
|
|
Post by nomad on Feb 11, 2015 10:00:05 GMT
but we do not live in 1920s anymore, science is much further and taxonomists should move further with it and not get stuck in past... Genitalia studies were a big part of describing species way back then, as they are today, if we wait for D.N.A. studies, I believe in most instances we would be waiting for a very long time. I think the problem with groups like Parnassius, is that they have seen over enthusiastic lepidopterists describe every population from almost every mountain. The splitters have certainly won here as opposed to the lumbers. Sometimes, I wonder if there were only minor differences in a Parnassius population, would it make much difference if you examined five or a hundred specimens, you probably still get a named subspecies. Colias of which, like Parnassius, i know very little about. I do know they are a very complex group with a number of similar looking species and then there are all the sterile hybrids where some populations meet and various female forms. Perhaps, only very few specialists like Bob could only positively ID them in the field. So yes, naming any Colias from one or two specimens would be a bad practice. I think with many of the rarer tropical leps, it is whole different Ball game, many fly up in the canopy, so you would be very unlikely in many instances to obtain a long series of specimens. |
|
|
|
Post by deliasfanatic on Feb 11, 2015 14:41:52 GMT
Plus, many tropical subspecies are restricted to individual islands. More often than not, they're consistently distinct from their relatives on other islands. Since in most cases there is no interchange between these island populations, they have long been isolated from one another, and a smaller series will often show that their differences are real. Of course in continental tropical species, the same situations can apply as in temperate regions, such as blend zones or clinal variation for species that have a broad range.
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Feb 11, 2015 18:01:12 GMT
We all agree on this radusho.
Especially for Parnassius.
|
|
|
|
Post by africaone on Feb 18, 2015 9:31:18 GMT
This si a very partisan debate. A group is not another and a single specimen is not another. A specimen of O. goliath seems sufficient to describe it as a new species while describing a specimen in some Parnassius or Colias seems very hazardous.
DNA is it's The Truth just a tool like others. Thousands Charaxes have been barcoded (nearly all African species). It gave nice resuts in some groups (with still unpublished results) and in other groups it gave nothing (such as the eudoxus and jasius group). The black complex will remain difficult even with DNA analysis. Description of pythodorus ventersi seems obvious while those of amandae should have been more careful (it is of a complex of species very variable with some doubtfull descriptions). Of coures, I would have described Charaxes lydiae or fournierae on one specimen 
The common sense will remain the best tool
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Feb 18, 2015 10:28:32 GMT
"The common sense will remain the best tool"
So true !
|
|
|
|
Post by obiwankenobi55555 on Feb 18, 2015 17:35:42 GMT
|
|
daveuk
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 92
Country: U.K.
|
Post by daveuk on Feb 24, 2015 21:31:28 GMT
Bhutantis lidderdalii ocellatomaculata-Chiang Mai Thailand Sep 1982. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Feb 25, 2015 1:30:48 GMT
Very nice example daveuk ! Bhutanitis in general have a most extraordinary wing shape. Lidderdalii and its subspecies are on my personal list of top 10 favorites. I read somewhere that they are said to smell of a "vanilla scent" in life. Fabulous creature....
|
|
jiborama
New Aurelian
Posts: 4 
Country: Canada
|
Post by jiborama on Mar 18, 2015 15:42:25 GMT
Erora laeta
(W. H. Edwards, 1862)
Caught 28 vii. 2013, Spruce Knob (1,400 m ; 4,800 ft), Pendleton co., West Virginia, United States
Known to be quite rare throughout its area.
The specimen shown is a male ; the female is known to be prettier, having much more blue scales. I hope someday I'll have the chance to see one. I shall investigate other north american mountaintops in order to achieve this objective... or consider driving the 1,100 km distance once again to search the very same spot!
_
|
|
jensb
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 50
Country: Netherlands
|
Post by jensb on Mar 29, 2015 14:29:57 GMT
I haven't set my rarest specimen yet cause i am to scared to damage it.
I probably dont have much other chances to get it.
It is a erebia claudina.
And I have set some erebias but I always lose much black scales in the proces
and dont want that to happen to this specimen. I will put some pictures up soon
from the unset specimen.
Greets Jens.
|
|
