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Post by mygos on Dec 21, 2014 9:07:59 GMT
Adam, thank you for your email, it sounds good for the future, and I will talk to Steve this coming week ...  A+, Michel |
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Post by nostrodamus on Dec 21, 2014 10:14:26 GMT
Maybe not the most striking beauties but they are missing in most collections ....
Muschampia leuzeae and Muschampia mohammed from Algeria/Morocco |
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Post by nostrodamus on Dec 21, 2014 16:08:25 GMT
Hello radusho,
No, I didn't collect them myself but I've been several times in the Middle Atlas region to look for M. mohammed but I never found it.There's so little know about those two species ! And as you said I never saw one at the big insectfairs in Europe ! So little collectors care about Hesperidae, last year I've had the luck to find my last missing European species myself in the most southern part of Spain: Borbo borbonica !
David |
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 21, 2014 16:11:35 GMT
Radovan, did you contact Michel Tarrier ? He lives and collects in Morocco
You can find him in the Suppliers page of Collector's Secret.
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Post by nostrodamus on Dec 21, 2014 16:39:25 GMT
M. Tarrier hates Hesperidae  I've discused with him several times about M. mohammed but he never found it or he doesn't have any information about this species ! In his book butterflies of Morocco: Hesperidae aren't included for some reason.... |
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 21, 2014 17:08:31 GMT
Interesting, I did not know that.
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Post by plebejus on Dec 29, 2014 15:26:26 GMT
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 30, 2014 11:16:50 GMT
2 wild Polygonia aberrations found the same day ! Congrats Franck, I have never seen one ! Indeed must have been a thermic/climatic issue there ! Or a Disneyland visual pollution effect !  |
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Post by xavm (Xavier) on Jan 9, 2015 9:06:01 GMT
May be not the rarest species, although it disappeared from Madeira in 1975, this picture is mainly for our 'moderator'
Will you guess ?
Attachments:
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 9, 2015 9:16:19 GMT
Pieris wollastoni !  Just want to say that my pseudo is in honour of another rare Pieridae : Delias wollastoni !
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Post by relliott on Feb 5, 2015 17:17:45 GMT
I guess it has to be Charaxes amandae, only known from 4 specimens all caught by my father in Southern Sudan. Specimens on the left the B.M. types, the only others two in my collection. Rod I do not find it different from Charaxes kirki Hi Radusho, but you did not write the scientific description based on all other possibilities or the detailed genetalia work, which separated these species... There are many black and white Charaxes in Africa running through the length of Africa, all looking similar but I will leave it to the taxonomist to decide. Out of interest, this is the smallest species from the African black Charaxes group. Regards, Rod |
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Post by relliott on Feb 7, 2015 20:22:15 GMT
Hi Radusho, but you did not write the scientific description based on all other possibilities or the detailed genetalia work, which separated these species... There are many black and white Charaxes in Africa running through the length of Africa, all looking similar but I will leave it to the taxonomist to decide. Out of interest, this is the smallest species from the African black Charaxes group. Regards, Rod I think that genitalia work based on 1 specimen is not enough. Genitalia can be variable within the species. DNA analyses should be made to make it clear. Radovan Well I am sure you are very proficient in the identification and classification of the African Charaxes, however Charaxes kirki has many subspecies, none of them actually close to Charaxes amanda. Charaxes amanda is so very small, and comparing it to C. kirki, is like comparing a Gorilla to a Chimpanzee! In My view, there is a closer comparison (visually) with Charaxes aubyni from Kenya, which actually has twice the forewing length. But we have bar coding these days, and I guess in time all will be revealed. But do remember when this species was described, it was before bar coding was available. As you are a sceptic, you may like to also comment on Charaxes pythodoris ventersi, which my father also discovered, (his name is Nigel Venters). Here is a photo of the original type specimens, now in the B.M. (Nat Hist) collection. But I have a feeling you will find problems with this as a true sub-species too!  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 8, 2015 19:07:02 GMT
radusho,
I think you are being a bit hard and unfair on Rod Elliott here. Rod has been kind enough to post pictures of these butterflies here, and share information with us all. His father, Nigel Venters, discovered these butterflies many years ago in Africa (he spent many years studying and breeding butterflies in Africa and around the world, and retired to live in Argentina some years ago) and did not decide himself whether these are new species or subspecies. Back when these were discovered they were described as species, at least Charaxes amandae was, and it seems this is still regarded as a species by the taxonomists who have revised African Charaxes, as far as I know.
It would be good to hear the opinions of some Charaxes experts, as I know almost nothing about them, but meanwhile please respect Rod for his willingness to share photos of these rare butterflies here. We are lucky to have him and many other people here who are happy to let us see pictures of interesting butterflies and insects.
I should also mention that Nigel Venters is one of the real top experts in butterfly breeding. He has probably bred more species of butterflies than I have had hot dinners, and I've eaten a lot of dinners in my time.
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 9, 2015 16:16:15 GMT
Agree, thank you Rod for sharing those rarities !
I know that Bernard Turlin has written or is writing a revision of the black Charaxes group. Would be interesting to have his point of view on amanda. I also know that barcoding on this group would not solve everything.
Radovan, I know that you are working mainly on paleartic species where it is "possible" to find a lot of specimens to describe a species.
Due to the density of tropical jungles, due to the canopy factor, it is far more difficult unfortunately to find a lot of material of many tropical species. For example, many Delias species or ssp are known by less than 10 specimens, and they were worth being described though.
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Post by satyrinae on Feb 9, 2015 20:12:16 GMT
Agree, thank you Rod for sharing those rarities ! I know that Bernard Turlin has written or is writing a revision of the black Charaxes group. Would be interesting to have his point of view on amanda. I also know that barcoding on this group would not solve everything. Radovan, I know that you are working mainly on paleartic species where it is "possible" to find a lot of specimens to describe a species. Due to the density of tropical jungles, due to the canopy factor, it is far more difficult unfortunately to find a lot of material of many tropical species. For example, many Delias species or ssp are known by less than 10 specimens, and they were worth being described though. I agree with you completely. Pseudochazara mamurra amymone was described from 5 specimens (if I recall correctly) in 1976 by Brown from Greece and no other specimen were ever collected before 2012 from Albania. So yes, a species/subspecies can be created from few specimens. |
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