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Post by trehopr1 on Mar 24, 2020 17:56:21 GMT
Thank you so much John for the kind update on both of the above issues !
Ever since I saw that post in 2011 about that rare aberration I have since, looked at every "whitish" butterfly that I have encountered with quite a bit more scrutiny. No luck yet...
I too prefer the chocolate brown colored drawers for the same reason you stated; unfortunately, it's too late to switch over as all the ones I own are of coarse the pine / varnished, natural ones sold at Bioquip.
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Post by luehdorfia on Apr 13, 2020 18:39:22 GMT
I just saw this Colias pair on ebay: www.ebay.com/itm/124151233775www.ebay.com/itm/124151232628It looks stunning! Is this the result of breeding? Or is this a temperature induced aberration? It looks a bit like the temperature forms that were once for sale of Aglais urticae and others. Still super pretty, and amazing that it is a pair.
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pips
New Aurelian
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Post by pips on Apr 14, 2020 7:25:58 GMT
The Colias pair offered on Ebay is produced by chemical injections to induce the effects of termperature shock. Once you know which chemical to use and which concentration you can make these by the thousands. Almost no deaths in contrast to temperature shock.
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Post by luehdorfia on Apr 14, 2020 12:06:20 GMT
That is impressive. Obviously a natural pair of this would be the find of a life time... pips do you have experience with doing that? Sounds interesting would love to hear more about it! And welcome to collector secret!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 14, 2020 13:29:14 GMT
The same eBay seller (https://www.ebay.com/usr/universal_butterflies), who is offering the Colias, last week had a melanic P. machaon on auction which was at over $1,700 a few days before it ended. I don't know what the final sale price was. Now he has another less melanic P. machaon aberration for sale.
His eBay home page states: 'Universal Butterflies is a small butterfly farm located in Italy. We are mainly specialised in butterfly aberrations.'
The second sentence should read "We are mainly specialised in making chemically induced butterfly aberrations to sell at ridiculous prices to gullible collectors."
There is a big difference in rarity between natural aberrations and artificial ones, and some people are cashing in on their knowledge while they can.
Adam.
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Post by Paul K on Apr 14, 2020 14:02:12 GMT
The same eBay seller (https://www.ebay.com/usr/universal_butterflies), who is offering the Colias, last week had a melanic P. machaon on auction which was at over $1,700 a few days before it ended. I don't know what the final sale price was. Now he has another less melanic P. machaon aberration for sale. His eBay home page states: 'Universal Butterflies is a small butterfly farm located in Italy. We are mainly specialised in butterfly aberrations.' The second sentence should read "We are mainly specialised in making chemically induced butterfly aberrations to sell at ridiculous prices to gullible collectors." There is a big difference in rarity between natural aberrations and artificial ones, and some people are cashing in on their knowledge while they can. Adam. I actually was thinking about that P.machaon few days ago that it must be fake as it was ex-pupa and he had two at the same time. What a coincidence! Someone paid big backs for worthless specimen.
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Post by luehdorfia on Apr 14, 2020 14:28:31 GMT
Good that we found out about that here together, I was also thinking about that machaon, I thought it was a lot of breeding and just pure luck to get such a specimen.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 14, 2020 14:58:23 GMT
As soon as I saw it I knew it was chemically induced. They are rather obvious, and one interesting point about these is that the undersides are overly pale, like the machaon currently on offer: . I saw some chemically induced black xuthus a few months ago similarly with all yellow undersides. It seems that the chemicals induce melanism on the upperside and the opposite on the underside. Natural aberrations don't have this opposite effect on upper- and undersides. I have just found photos of one, and actually it DOES. I will post photos soon. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 14, 2020 15:16:22 GMT
By the way, I produced a few melanic aberrations of Italian machaon from near Modena a few years ago completely naturally. They were the product of INBREEDING in the last generation I was able to rear from that population. None of the specimens in several generations before that one were aberrant at all. Here are photos of one of them: Adam.
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 14, 2020 18:35:17 GMT
Wow, love that natural melanic abberation you bred Adam ! If you have the series could we see a picture?
That is a "priceless" statement you made in your above post about gullible collectors...👍😊
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 14, 2020 18:42:02 GMT
I haven't spread them, they are hidden in a box somewhere. I hope I can find them one day Adam.
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 14, 2020 18:54:05 GMT
Understand. Sometimes, it seems there is never enough time to get to all the interesting or fun things which we would like to do (in a timely manner)...
Too many distractions or other real life needs chipping away at our precious personal time.
Maybe, sometime you could post some pic's of some of your other breeding success stories.
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Post by nomad on Apr 15, 2020 13:35:47 GMT
The same eBay seller (https://www.ebay.com/usr/universal_butterflies), who is offering the Colias, last week had a melanic P. machaon on auction which was at over $1,700 a few days before it ended. I don't know what the final sale price was. Now he has another less melanic P. machaon aberration for sale. His eBay home page states: 'Universal Butterflies is a small butterfly farm located in Italy. We are mainly specialised in butterfly aberrations.' The second sentence should read "We are mainly specialised in making chemically induced butterfly aberrations to sell at ridiculous prices to gullible collectors." There is a big difference in rarity between natural aberrations and artificial ones, and some people are cashing in on their knowledge while they can. Adam. Totally agreed with Adam. Far too many chemical aberrations are made, and the sellers have flooded the market, that is why the prices for these abs remain low. Cannot see why anybody in their right mind would pay such a large price for a chemical melanic swallowtail on ebay, many, many were made by one European dealer. Certainly do not agree that they are worth every Euro, £ or $. The chemical melanic swallowtails don't hold a candle to the historic ab. obscura and ab. niger that were bred by selective skilled breeders, or were a red letter day one off . Not too sure why you would want chemical abs in your collection, although plenty do, even serious wild aberration collectors have. I guess they are just eye- catching space fillers.
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pips
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Post by pips on Apr 15, 2020 14:21:16 GMT
Normal prices for these chemical induced specimens are between 10 and 25€. Some species who are more difficult do breed, with overwintering larvae like Argynnis paphia, are worth something more up to 75€. Prices over 100€ are a bit high. Prices over 1000 are just stupid. If these bids are in fact real... Using your knowledge obtained by a PhD to make personal money without any scientific value or without giving specimens to Natural History Museums (with the correct information on how the form was created) is not how I think sciencific studies should be made. But if the seller just wants to make big money selling to uninformed buyers that is his good right.
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pips
New Aurelian
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Post by pips on Apr 15, 2020 14:48:10 GMT
I have caught myself a natural temperature form of Issoria lathonia and have also bought a good number of chemical induced resembling forms of the same species. So I do believe you can add some of these made specimens to your collection as long as these resemble the natural occuring forms. Forms as they are sold now have nothing to do with natural forms any more. But they do look magnificent so that might attract some buyers. by the way the Issoria lathonia beautifull forms costed me 10 to 20€. My natural one is worth 10 times that much to me. Sorry I couldn't add any pictures because of the following error code (Unable to upload file Error: This forum has exceeded its attachment space limit. Your file cannot be uploaded.)
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