777
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 97
Country: U.S.A.
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Post by 777 on Oct 2, 2018 16:58:30 GMT
Im kinda happy insect collecting is not super popular because if most people in the world were into insect collecting, over harvesting would be a MUCH bigger problem. It’s very relaxing seeing that the beautiful insects flying around my house are ever abundant because everyone around me are too scared or disinterested to collect them except me. We almost have these insects to ourselves at this point. Over-harvesting of insects is a myth. Collectors don't have any pressure on insect populations and even if we were 100x more numerous, there would be no impact. Everyday, billions of insects are killed by spiders, birds, cars and so on. There population is not dependent to predation, insect collecting cannot have any impact. I would prefer there would be PLENTY of insect collectors : it would be great for insects as people would respect more their habitat and stop deforestation, stupid concrete urbanization, stupid pesticides and so on. You got a good point there |
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Post by Paul K on Oct 2, 2018 17:35:21 GMT
Over-harvesting of insects is a myth. Collectors don't have any pressure on insect populations and even if we were 100x more numerous, there would be no impact. Everyday, billions of insects are killed by spiders, birds, cars and so on. There population is not dependent to predation, insect collecting cannot have any impact. I would prefer there would be PLENTY of insect collectors : it would be great for insects as people would respect more their habitat and stop deforestation, stupid concrete urbanization, stupid pesticides and so on. You got a good point there And if you still would have any doubts check this out: collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2559/sesiidae-louisiana-usaMr.Brou is collecting in Louisiana millions of moths each year and they are still there. If any of those false over harvesting stories would be valid there wouldn’t be any moths left in Louisiana and Mr.Brou could be the most unhappy man on earth. Paul |
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Post by Paul K on Oct 14, 2018 17:25:44 GMT
Yea, I read it and I wonder why National Geografic doesn’t use word “butterfly” when talking about insects destroying the forest and all the greenery and birds come to rescue.
It is all twisted again and again.
Insects are reproducing in huge number not to destroy forest as Ntional Geagrafic said but to provide food for birds, bats and other animals and to be enjoyed, studied and collected by entomologists. I forgot the pollinate roll, but I am sure if no insects the plants would find other way to pollinate them self as some do by wind for example.
Paul
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Post by jmg on Nov 11, 2018 9:17:24 GMT
 About Bantimurung where the NG video was made (Sulawesi Island, Indonesia) and insects dealers, see the page : www.lepido-france.fr/le-cauchemar-de-wallace-bantimurung/ A. R. Wallace counted 250 species of rhopalocera at Bantimurung in 1857 and described the area as "Kingdom of Butterflies". The census, conducted in 2005 by Professor Sila Mappatoba (Hasanuddin University of Makassar), counted only 125 taxa. The last study stops at 108 species, still for the only area of the Park (according to Trubus News). This sad decline can be explained by at least two main factors: - at the local level: the proliferation of quarries and cement plants (the exploitation of karst limestone) near the Bantimurung Park: pollution, habitat devastation. - at the level of the "Natural" Park itself: its gradual transformation, according to a deliberate policy of the authorities, in Luna-Park, recreational area for the inhabitants of Makassar who come in crowds at the weekend, disturb the butterflies, destroy the biotopes and return by purchasing insects as souvenirs (spread butterflies, resinous beetles, key bugs, etc.). It is very likely that these butterflies do not come from breeding but are captured on the site, despite its status of "Natural Park" where only foreign entomologists are prohibited from hunting! For evidence of this institutional vandalism: the abandonment of the Entomological Museum contrasting with recent leisure developments: cemented areas, rides, picnic areas, playgrounds for children, etc., inside the Park, there where precisely swirled thousands of butterflies.  I did these three photos in Bantimurung 10 years ago in August 2008. I wonder what it is today ... I fear the worst. Note the large number of butterflies in principle protected by the Washington Convention (CITES). So if an entomologist crosses a border with one of these Lepidoptera he is in serious trouble, while thousands of protected insects are sold as souvenirs.   |
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Post by nomad on Nov 11, 2018 9:44:27 GMT
Very interesting piece. You have to only glance at your image and see that many of the people shown are not native to Sulawesi Island and are probably Javanese, if you get mass migration to an unspoiled area this will be the result, the same thing is happening in Western New Guinea.
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Post by wollastoni on Nov 11, 2018 10:27:40 GMT
Very interesting piece. You have to only glance at your image and see that many of the people shown are not native to Sulawesi Island and are probably Javanese, if you get mass migration to an unspoiled area this will be the result, the same thing is happening in Western New Guinea. You're right for Western New Guinea, but in Bantimurung most sellers are Sulawesian. BTW you will have to explain me how you tell apart a Javanese from a Sulawesian !  I am not sure there is a mass migration to Sulawesi but a demographic explosion for sure (like in the rest of Indonesia). The status of West Papua is different as Indonesian government is sending MILLIONS of Indonesians there (from all islands) to be sure that it will never be independant. They offer free land to poor Indonesians in Papua. I think today there is more Indonesians than Papuans in West Papua. China is doing the same in Tibet, a very efficient invasion technique. You can compare this to what happens in America with European settlers vs native tribes, we know the result. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 11, 2018 11:08:37 GMT
Not all of the butterflies in the frames actually come from Sulawesi (eg P. ulysses), although probably most of them do.
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Nov 11, 2018 11:14:32 GMT
Yes, you can even find South American and African species in these tourist stuff.
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Post by nomad on Nov 11, 2018 13:48:50 GMT
BTW you will have to explain me how you tell apart a Javanese from a Sulawesian !  I think I have been reading too much Wallace. More interesting are these facts. "The largest environmental issue in Sulawesi is deforestation. In 2007, scientists found that 80 percent of Sulawesi's forest had been lost or degraded, especially centered in the lowlands and the mangroves. Forests have been felled for logging and large agricultural projects. Loss of forest has resulted in many of Sulawesi's endemic species becoming endangered. In addition, 99 percent of Sulawesi's wetlands have been lost or damaged. ." From Wikipedia |
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Post by jmg on Nov 11, 2018 16:06:44 GMT
Here is what we can say about mass migrations in Sulawesi. First, in Indonesia, this is called the transmigration policy from the most populated to the less populated islands. So, in Sulawesi, this consisted of moving Balinese (Hindu) to the west center of the island and Javanese (Muslims) mostly to the east center. And this has caused serious problems in areas already populated by Christians. A real civil war took place there with massacres made par Muslims against Christians. Today, as far as I know, the situation is pacified. Nevertheless, my personal testimony for the years 2000 to 2010 is that the Muslim villages between Poso and Ampana (East Central Sulawesi) were not hospitable ... Indonesian visitors to Bantimurung are mainly inhabitants of Makassar, that is, Muslim Bugis. As Wollastoni says in Papua, the situation is completely different. The main purpose of transmigration is to strengthen the colonial situation by making Papuans minority people in their own country. A bit like in the eastern part of Maluku (Halmahera, Amboyna). As for deforestation in Sulawesi, it is obviously considerable. You can drive miles of kilometers without seeing a large preserved forest. Except in some regions of very rugged relief. Of course, there are still bits of forest like in the east of the country Toraja (Pouncak Palopo) and, south of Palu, around Palolo Lindu. To name just two famous entomological hot spots. See : www.lepido-france.fr/les-voyages-de-lalf/ |
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Post by jmg on Nov 11, 2018 16:14:10 GMT
In the photos, in these boxes offered to tourists, we see mostly butterflies from Sulawesi and the surrounding islands (see the typical "giant" Papilionidae Sulawesi). That said, you can easily buy butterflies from Maluku and Papua, including Ornithoptera. Do not remember seeing any African or American species. By cons, because the Chinese control much of the trade in French Guiana (minimarkets and souvenir shops), we can easily and frequently buy Chinese butterflies or more generally Asian as "memories of Guyana"!  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 19:44:05 GMT
Wow, just read the comments on the video, the level of self righteousness and ignorance is staggering in equal measure.
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777
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 97
Country: U.S.A.
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Post by 777 on Nov 12, 2018 1:57:33 GMT
It’s funny how the people in the video’s comment section think that butterfly specimens are useless. Butterfly collecting gives us so much information about these creatures and the places they live in. Butterfly collecting gave me a whole new perspective of the forest I live next to (where I caught most of my specimens), and I discovered and learned things about that forest that I never could have without butterfly collecting.
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I think I have been reading too much Wallace. More interesting are these facts.
