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Post by Paul K on Jun 11, 2018 14:33:35 GMT
I understand why P.machaon does not occur in Thailand, not cold enough, not enough daylight and no food plant.
It is quite strange that the species does not occur in southern Ontario. The food plants are here, winters are long and cold and the daylight is long during the summer months. Ssp.hudsonianus inhabits northern parts of Ontario near Hudson Bay which is about 1000-1300km north of Toronto. Closely related Papilio polyxenes on the other hand is very common in south parts but does not occur in north.
I wonder if there is an explanation for this.
Paul
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 11, 2018 19:47:24 GMT
It is quite strange that the species does not occur in southern Ontario. The food plants are here, winters are long and cold and the daylight is long during the summer months. Ssp. hudsonianus inhabits northern parts of Ontario near Hudson Bay which is about 1000-1300km north of Toronto. Closely related Papilio polyxenes on the other hand is very common in south parts but does not occur in north. I wonder if there is an explanation for this. Possibly machaon has populated southern Ontario in the past, but if it came into contact with polyxenes regularly moving northwards it may have become locally extinct if all the machaon females mated with males of polyxenes producing sterile offspring. Probably machaon is still present in the north because polyxenes does not reach that far. This could possibly change in future if climate change becomes a factor enabling polyxenes to move much further north. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 11, 2018 22:13:08 GMT
Friends, all my greetings! Recently, I got one sample in the photo he was under number 5. Russia, Astrakhan Region, Akhtubinsky District, Sokrutovka village, 05.05.2003, the label was signed as P. machaon machaon. I think there's been an obvious mistake in the definition, don't you think? piccy.info/view3/12264984/4cd4732eaf4dbf982da5657cf3fd8131/orig/Attachments:
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Post by Paul K on Jun 11, 2018 22:43:51 GMT
It is quite strange that the species does not occur in southern Ontario. The food plants are here, winters are long and cold and the daylight is long during the summer months. Ssp. hudsonianus inhabits northern parts of Ontario near Hudson Bay which is about 1000-1300km north of Toronto. Closely related Papilio polyxenes on the other hand is very common in south parts but does not occur in north. I wonder if there is an explanation for this. Possibly machaon has populated southern Ontario in the past, but if it came into contact with polyxenes regularly moving northwards it may have become locally extinct if all the machaon females mated with males of polyxenes producing sterile offspring. Probably machaon is still present in the north because polyxenes does not reach that far. This could possibly change in future if climate change becomes a factor enabling polyxenes to move much further north. Adam. This is a very interesting theory. If this is true and I suppose it is the two very close related species can not exists together if crossbreeding is possible and one of them is in much lower number. The more rare species population will finally collapse due to crossbreeding and sterile offspring. Paul
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 12, 2018 19:57:57 GMT
Friends, all my greetings! Recently, I got one sample in the photo he was under number 5. Russia, Astrakhan Region, Akhtubinsky District, Sokrutovka village, 05.05.2003, the label was signed as P. machaon machaon. I think there's been an obvious mistake in the definition, don't you I always find it strange that Russian literature treats specimens from many localities as belonging to ssp. machaon. That comes from Sweden, with gorganus and lapponicus between there and Russia. Seyer treats Scandinavia and northern Russia as ssp. machaon with lapponicus as a form of that subspecies, so probably Russian literature follows that treatment, but I am not sure that this treatment is accurate. Specimens from near to Volgograd are within the range of ssp. gorganus as per Seyer, which I would think that your Astrakhan specimen probably belongs to. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 12, 2018 21:30:15 GMT
Adam, I fully agree with you, it is also surprising for me that the Moscow region is considered to be ssp. machaon machaon. I am now waiting for a parcel from Belarus Grodno, near the borders of Lithuania and Poland. There a series of samples of spring and summer generation. In Belarus as well as in my region subspecies designated as P. machaon machaon but they are quite different in appearance from those which I catch us in the Moscow region. Astrakhan model can be attributed to ssp. gorganus based on geographical data, but he seems big for spring generation ssp. gorganus, Yes and visually like not very look like? I am not mistaken that ssp. gorganus in any generation is always smaller than ssp. machaon?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 12, 2018 22:09:45 GMT
I am now waiting for a parcel from Belarus Grodno, near the borders of Lithuania and Poland. Surely those must be ssp. gorganus. Spring generation gorganus can be quite large, but Swedish machaon is normally larger, as you say. I feel that Astrakhan machaon does not really look like western European gorganus, probably it is influenced by other nearby subspecies. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 12, 2018 22:34:19 GMT
Surely those must be ssp. gorganus. Adam, I'm sorry, I did not quite understand, you mean that ssp. is common in Belarus gorganus?
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 12, 2018 23:06:20 GMT
On a sample from Astrakhan it is difficult to me to draw any certain conclusions. In my opinion, it mixed up the signs of the group centralis and gorganus. It is a pity that there are no samples from the Western part of Kazakhstan.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 13, 2018 8:51:47 GMT
Adam, I'm sorry, I did not quite understand, you mean that ssp. is common in Belarus gorganus? Yes, I meant that Belarus machaon must belong to gorganus. The type locality of gorganus is "Germania, Austria. Europ. centr." and since Belarus is just east of Poland the machaon there should be the same, especially considering that in 1922 Germany included a lot of territory now part of Poland. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 13, 2018 9:49:06 GMT
Now I see what you meant. Sometimes the translation turns out to be wrong and the meaning of the sentences is distorted.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 14, 2018 0:27:43 GMT
Friends! Maybe someone will be interested. Here's a curious couple with a reduction of the blue band over the red anal eye. 10.06.18. Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, Nevelsky district. Attachments:
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 14, 2018 23:33:00 GMT
Wow. You guys are astonishing. Keep it up I love this stuff.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 16, 2018 19:58:10 GMT
Friends, all good time! Adam, you mentioned earlier that P. m. hippocrates in addition to the first and second generation there is an intermediate, with one black Chevron. Is this generation typical for Japan, Hokkaido, and what are its visual differences from the spring generation? I have from Hokkaido two spring pairs with dates 25.04.2015., 10.05.2016. and 25.05.2014 all with one Chevron. From another part of Japan Fukui 09.04.2016 spring generation with one Chevron, and from Kyoto 29.05.2016 males are already large and bright yellow with double black Chevron summer generation. What are the numbers of this intermediate generation and every year it can be observed? piccy.info/view3/12265026/6f2e78d4f77e23ea6ff62b7d8f14d86e/orig/Attachments:
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 16, 2018 21:31:58 GMT
I very much doubt that there will be an intermediate generation anywhere near Hokkaido or northern Honshu. This generation can only be found in the southernmost part of the range of hippocrates, and I expect that in years where spring starts late there may not be an intermediate generation at all. In Hokkaido there should only be a spring and summer generation. The intermediate generation where it occurs looks similar to the spring generation, but larger. I don't have any information on the natural occurrence of this generation in Japan. It is possible that the intermediate generation I obtained here does not occur naturally in most of Japan, as it could be that environmental and daylength effects produce this extra generation in warmer areas with shorter daylength. Note that there is an important distinction between relatively short daylength that is gradually getting longer and daylength that is gradually getting shorter. The latter is an important trigger for diapause, and this has an effect in the period from 4th and 5th instar larvae until they prepare to pupate. You cannot trigger diapause by subjecting pupae to shorter daylength and cooler temperatures.
Adam.
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