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Post by nomad on Jun 7, 2018 18:57:31 GMT
Originally I used the "Insert Image" option, which didn't display the images but I could open them by a right click, as Paul said. Strange. Adam. I just click on the bottom one, linked BB code message boards and then copy and paste here, then my images appear.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 7, 2018 22:00:04 GMT
Here's the photo as promised: Data from left to right: Karatal river, 1500 m., Monrak Mts., E Kazakhstan 26-30 May 2007 (sold as ssp. micado, which actually comes from Japan) Tsagduuldai Valley, 2800 m., 50 km N of Uench Aimak, Hovd Aimak, W Mongolia 3 July 2005 near Salair, 700 m., Kemerovo, Russia 21 May 2000 With regard to the Kemerovo specimen, the collector told me that this phenotype only occurs in the one place in the area, near Kemerovo city is "normal" machaon. Unfortunately I don't have a male, but the female does look rather similar to the Mongolian female next to it, and the Mongolian males are not so different to the E Kazakhstan specimens. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 7, 2018 22:17:34 GMT
I apologize pendjabensis typo. I wanted to write P. m. baijangensis Huang & Murayama, 1992 Ah I see, baijianensis Huang & Murayama, 1992 (type locality Huocheng, Tianshan, 2300m, Xinjiang) could well be the valid name for E Kazakhstan machaon. Huocheng is just east of the Xinjiang border near Zharkent. The holotype is rather small, forewing length 37.6mm and was collected in July 1982. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 7, 2018 22:19:51 GMT
I just click on the bottom one, linked BB code message boards and then copy and paste here, then my images appear. That's what I did when trying to edit the post, but the photo didn't load, and neither did the right clickable symbol that was there when I first made the post. Adam.
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Post by nomad on Jun 8, 2018 7:29:33 GMT
Probably an imgur off day. At least its not every day like photobucket.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 8, 2018 19:35:34 GMT
Hello everybody! I heard that Pagenstecher in 1875 described ssp. micado but at the moment it seems this is seen as a variation rather than a subspecies. Although I've never seen a mention of information on this matter as on the micado as a whole. Adam, from Kemerovo you signed correctly, this is the beautiful female R. m. orientis. He has a fairly extended habitat range up to the Far East. I have the opposite female, only males. I dare say, I observed that even in one population the length of the tails is different. Pay attention to my photo, the tail is very short and the shape of the wings is more rounded. This sample is Russia, South Tuva, North slopes of Khorumnug Tayga Mts., Khadyn river valley, h-1600m. 18-23.06.2010. In general, an additional sign is that this subspecies is different in the lower part of the hind wings (Bz - Rz8 and Rz9), but sometimes it may be absent. Also, your sample has a well-defined distinctive feature that is an uneven curved submarginal strip. Attachments:
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 8, 2018 20:08:29 GMT
Russia, Siberia, Tuva Khoro mug-Taiga Mts., Buren r., 1600-1900 m. 1-10.06.2000. More elongated tail. Attachments:
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 8, 2018 22:39:15 GMT
I heard that Pagenstecher in 1875 described ssp. micado but at the moment it seems this is seen as a variation rather than a subspecies. Although I've never seen a mention of information on this matter as on the micado as a whole. Pagenstecher described micado from Japan in late 1874 (published after 6 November), Ver. Naturf. naturh.-med. Ver. Heidelberg (N.F.), 1(1): 98. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 9, 2018 16:32:45 GMT
So I was mistaken for a year. Adam, help me please understand the territory of Sichuan. Previously for the regions of Sichuan Province the following subspecies were listed:
1 P. m. montanus Alphéraky, 1897 W.Sichuan, SW.Gansu, E.Qinghai, NW.Yunnan
2 P. m. archias Fruhstorfer, 1907 S.Sichuan
3 P. m. kunkalaschani Eller, 1939 W.Sichuan
4 P. m. chinensis Verity, 1905 Sichuan.
It is strange that for one geographical location two subspecies of P. m are given. montanus and P. m. kunkalaschani. I believe that kunkalaschani is a synonym?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 9, 2018 17:55:55 GMT
So I was mistaken for a year. Adam, help me please understand the territory of Sichuan. Previously for the regions of Sichuan Province the following subspecies were listed: 1 P. m. montanus Alphéraky, 1897 W.Sichuan, SW.Gansu, E.Qinghai, NW.Yunnan 2 P. m. archias Fruhstorfer, 1907 S.Sichuan 3 P. m. kunkalaschani Eller, 1939 W.Sichuan 4 P. m. chinensis Verity, 1905 Sichuan. It is strange that for one geographical location two subspecies of P. m are given. montanus and P. m. kunkalaschani. I believe that kunkalaschani is a synonym? This is rather problematic nomenclatorially. I will discuss the 4 names here: 1. montanus Alphéraky, 1897 (type locality "hautes régions de la Chine occidentale") probably came from Qinghai near to Kuku-Nor lake, but the name is a junior homonym and was replaced by hieromax Hemming, 1934. However it seems to me that probably this is the same as alpherakyi Bang-Haas, 1933 (type locality "Kansu mer. or., Minschan Gebirge, Min Tanho, 2600 m.") which would have priority as the valid name. This taxon belongs to the same group of short tailed high altitude machaon with a double black chevron over the hindwing anal eye spot as hookeri Gaonkar, 1999 (= sikkimensis Moore, 1884 also a junior homonym). The long tailed subspecies of machaon in the lower altitudes of S Kansu and Sichuan is your number 4 above, but see below. 2. archias Fruhstorfer, 1907 is a rather problematic name. The type locality is "Fou-Lin, Tibet", which probably is Fulin south-southwest of Ya'an, W. Sichuan. Back in 1907 that place would have been regarded as belonging to Tibet, rather than modern Sichuan. This name is a junior homonym covered by ICZN Code article 23.9.5 (the senior name is a Lycaenid), and as such requires an application to the Commission to rule on its availablility. 3. kunkalaschani Eller, 1939 is a nomen nudum, along with many names in that publication. As such the name is unavailable. 4. As I stated on page 1 of this thread "This is ssp. venchuanus Moonen, 1984 which is the replacement name for chinensis Eller, 1936 which is a junior homonym (Verity's 1907 name was infrasubspecific and thus unavailable, but Eller treated it as a ssp. and made the name available with his authorship and date of publication)." However, archias Fruhstorfer, 1907 is probably the senior name for this taxon, as they are the same. So in summary there are actually only 2 subspecies in Sichuan. The first is the high altitude short tailed taxon (which may even be a separate species) in number 1 above, and the second is the lower altitude long tailed taxon (numbers 2, 3 & 4). Confusingly the valid name for both subspecies is still not actually 100% certain as explained above. Currently it is best to use hieromax Hemming, 1934 for specimens from Qinghai & high altitude W Sichuan, and alpherakyi Bang-Haas, 1933 for the short tailed taxon from S. Kansu. Until the status of archias Fruhstorfer, 1907 is confirmed it is best to use venchuanus Moonen, 1984 as the valid name for the long tailed lower altitude subspecies. Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 9, 2018 19:46:47 GMT
Adam, thank you very much, very interesting! There are large lists of subspecies whose names are no longer used and there is no reliable information on this subject in the public domain. Adam, maybe you have any articles or publications in electronic format so I can expand my knowledge?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 10, 2018 18:24:33 GMT
I thought that people would be interested to see some specimens of the rare high altitude machaon from the eastern Himalayas and Qinghai often known as sikkimensis, but correctly called hookeri. These may actually belong to a separate species from machaon. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 10, 2018 18:27:55 GMT
Ah! that worked! Right click on the image and open in a new window to be able to zoom in on the specimens.
I actually have a significant number of papered specimens of these, but no time to spread them.
Adam.
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Post by Maksim khorunov on Jun 10, 2018 22:23:37 GMT
Adam Your selection of Super!!! Beautiful high-rise models are quite rare in the market. I'm wondering, Papilio machaon is able to migrate over long distances then why is it not in Thailand?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 11, 2018 8:56:37 GMT
I'm wondering, Papilio machaon is able to migrate over long distances then why is it not in Thailand? It is not recorded from Laos, although it is present in southern Yunnan, and in Vietnam it is only found in the northernmost province of Hagiang. In Burma it is present as far south as Taunggyi, W. Shan States. It is found on a hill near the town, and I have a specimen from there given to me by my late friend Prasobsuk Sukkit. As far as I can remember that is the closest that machaon gets to Thailand. Almost certainly there are two factors in its lack of distribution this far south, firstly absence of suitable foodplants and secondly tropical almost uniform daylength without a significant cold winter. I am sure that in the case of machaon the first is the more important factor, whereas in P. xuthus it is definitely the second, as there are plenty of foodplants here. The major Apiaceae species in this area is coriander, but machaon larvae will not eat it and nor will adults lay eggs on it. I have tried many times, as it is the easiest species to grow here. Fennel, rue, dill etc are rather difficult to grow here except in our dry season, and none of them occur naturally. Interestingly machaon will lay eggs on Zanthoxylum myriacanthum but larvae do not progress beyond second instar on it. They will not eat Citrus at all; I placed freshly hatched larvae on young shoots of that but they wouldn't eat it. On xuthus in a thread on Palawan and Philippine butterflies (http://collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2319/palawan-philippine-butterflies) I wrote: It is interesting that the distribution of P. xuthus is limited by daylength and its need for a cold enough winter to break diapause. The southernmost locality for this species is Hagiang, the northernmost province of Vietnam which has a more pronounced winter than elsewhere in Vietnam. I bred xuthus here in Chiang Mai from overwintering pupae ex Japan. It was very interesting that because the daylength is less than 14 hours all year round the offspring all go into diapause and I never obtained summer form specimens even at the right time of year. All the pupae refused to hatch without spending a couple of months in the fridge. They did not hatch naturally after our 'winter' as it was not cold enough for long enough to break diapause. I suspect that if I had used artificial lighting to prolong daylength I could have obtained summer form specimens. The same also happened with P. dehaanii from Japan, but interestingly not when I bred P. machaon hippocrates which did hatch without cold treatment and did produce the striking summer form specimens as well. Adam.
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