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Post by nomad on Aug 17, 2016 7:52:53 GMT
I am sure the Papilionidae specialists here are aware of this, but I thought I would add it here, just in case others have not see this journal. Pupae bought in Shakespeare Country, sent to South Africa and then this emerged. I suspect there cannot be many others?
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Post by deliasfanatic on Aug 17, 2016 13:25:37 GMT
Very interesting and thanks for posting. There is a recurrent form of the nominate male that has broad black margins all around, making it look somewhat like the subspecies humbloti, but I haven't seen a male like this that is almost entirely black.
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Post by cabintom on Aug 17, 2016 15:22:29 GMT
I wonder, are there more forms of Papilio dardanus or of Pseudacraea eurytus? I guess, I'm asking is dardanus truly the most extreme example of Batesian mimicry known?
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Post by deliasfanatic on Aug 17, 2016 16:44:02 GMT
I wonder, are there more forms of Papilio dardanus or of Pseudacraea eurytus? I guess, I'm asking is dardanus truly the most extreme example of Batesian mimicry known? Without actually sitting down and counting them, I'd guess that there are more named forms of Ps. eurytus compared to nominate dardanus, but when you take all the dardanus subspecies into account - some having different names for the same form, some using the same names, and some being unnamed - there are probably more forms of dardanus. |
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Post by africaone on Aug 17, 2016 16:48:22 GMT
I wonder, are there more forms of Papilio dardanus or of Pseudacraea eurytus? I guess, I'm asking is dardanus truly the most extreme example of Batesian mimicry known? Without actually sitting down and counting them, I'd guess that there are more named forms of Ps. eurytus compared to nominate dardanus, but when you take all the dardanus subspecies into account - some having different names for the same form, some using the same names, and some being unnamed - there are probably more forms of dardanus. keep in mind that dardanus and eurytus are probably complex of species (nor only one species) ...  |
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Post by mcheki on Aug 17, 2016 18:51:59 GMT
I agree with Africaone in as far as eurytus may well be a complex of species but I am not sure about dardanus, as I feel that this is genuinely a single species with several subspecies. Quite how so many female forms have arisen is in fact a mystery to me. Certain female forms are clearly linked to specific subspecies and other forms have similar patterns in several subspecies. The ratio of one form to another definitely differs from one area of the country to another and is even apparent between two adjacent areas. If this change is a cline then not even subspecies are involved. If geographically separated then there can be subspecies. The only possible species separation could be those with non tailed females and those with tailed females as there does not seem to be any zone of hybridisation between the two.
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Post by trehopr1 on Aug 18, 2016 5:23:59 GMT
Well, that is certainly a remarkable specimen indeed. It very much reminds me of some likewise very rare melanic examples of Papilio machaon brittanicus known to be in the British Museum and perhaps at Oxford as well. Nomad has posted pictures of these melanic machaon before.
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Post by nomad on Aug 18, 2016 6:55:48 GMT
Yes they are remarkable. The papilio machaon melanics are all in the British Museum, there are none at Oxford. No one either by cold shock or chemical injection has produced anything quite like them. See collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/402/tales-melanic-swallowtailsI have seen the dark Papilio machaon for sale that are being produced by a European dealer, who produces them from chemical injection to the pupae but they do not resemble the black-melanic bred specimens of old.. |
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Post by africaone on Aug 18, 2016 11:08:55 GMT
I agree with Africaone in as far as eurytus may well be a complex of species but I am not sure about dardanus, as I feel that this is genuinely a single species with several subspecies. Quite how so many female forms have arisen is in fact a mystery to me. Certain female forms are clearly linked to specific subspecies and other forms have similar patterns in several subspecies. The ratio of one form to another definitely differs from one area of the country to another and is even apparent between two adjacent areas. If this change is a cline then not even subspecies are involved. If geographically separated then there can be subspecies. The only possible species separation could be those with non tailed females and those with tailed females as there does not seem to be any zone of hybridisation between the two. I really doubt that dardanus involved only one species .... wingshape, pattern, android female, etc. it is at minima a complex of well differenciated species (at least the central african , the east african , the malagasy, the ethiopian, etc..). strange that everebody estimated normal to see complex of similar species like "parnassius", "machaon", etc. for which it is sometimes difficult to separate the species and to not consider that the same is possible for more poorly sutudied group in wich different taxa are not so difficult to separate.
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Post by cabintom on Aug 18, 2016 13:55:29 GMT
I really doubt that dardanus involved only one species .... wingshape, pattern, android female, etc. it is at minima a complex of well differenciated species (at least the central african , the east african , the malagasy, the ethiopian, etc..). I know relatively little about P. dardanus, so I'm asking out of curiosity... but hasn't the species been widely and extensively bred? Wouldn't there be observed differences in larval development, etc.? |
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Post by africaone on Aug 18, 2016 14:34:31 GMT
I really doubt that dardanus involved only one species .... wingshape, pattern, android female, etc. it is at minima a complex of well differenciated species (at least the central african , the east african , the malagasy, the ethiopian, etc..). I know relatively little about P. dardanus, so I'm asking out of curiosity... but hasn't the species been widely and extensively bred? Wouldn't there be observed differences in larval development, etc.? you can't imagine the ammount of information that is yet availlable in different collection (breeding, series by localities, etc.) and not used to revise some groups.  |
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Post by mcheki on Aug 18, 2016 19:01:23 GMT
Cabintom said:-- <<<< I know relatively little about P. dardanus, so I'm asking out of curiosity... but hasn't the species been widely and extensively bred? Wouldn't there be observed differences in larval development, etc.? >>>>
Over the years I have bred, in small numbers, dardanus from Uganda, from the Kenya/ Tanzania coast, from Kibwezi in Kenya also Zimbabwe, Malawi as well as South Africa and have not noticed any differences between the larvae or pupae. Take into account that they were reared under greenhouse conditions in the UK and fed on Choisya ternata which is a hardy plant of the Rutaceae group that can be grown outdoors in UK. In some cases several generations were obtained.
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