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Post by neominois on Jun 23, 2016 0:41:27 GMT
Several of the specimens I brought back from Peru have that abdominal stain on the wings. I knew to remove the abdomen from Morpho species (luckily) but Now that I am spreading the material I have noticed that certain Nympalidae and Pieridae specimens are also staining the wings. This really bums me out as some specimens have the stain and others i collected of the same species do not. First of all, are there any techniques to avoid this other than removing abdomens? (I saved the Morpho abdomens and plan on re-attaching them once specimens are dried). Second, is there anything that can be done to remove the stain on specimens. I experimented a little with acetone, dripping it onto the stain. It helped a little by dissolving grease, but the stain remains... I never have this staining problem with North American species... Suggestions? Thanks much, Matt  |
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Post by africaone on Jun 23, 2016 15:00:18 GMT
Several of the specimens I brought back from Peru have that abdominal stain on the wings. I knew to remove the abdomen from Morpho species (luckily) but Now that I am spreading the material I have noticed that certain Nympalidae and Pieridae specimens are also staining the wings. This really bums me out as some specimens have the stain and others i collected of the same species do not. First of all, are there any techniques to avoid this other than removing abdomens? (I saved the Morpho abdomens and plan on re-attaching them once specimens are dried). Second, is there anything that can be done to remove the stain on specimens. I experimented a little with acetone, dripping it onto the stain. It helped a little by dissolving grease, but the stain remains... I never have this staining problem with North American species... Suggestions? Thanks much, Matt you will never recoverer completely. Try to use a small cotton with water.
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 23, 2016 15:09:05 GMT
To avoid it, do you put toilet paper inside your triangles/papillotes ?
This technique avoids the greasing of self-caught specimens.
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Post by neominois on Jun 23, 2016 16:59:10 GMT
To avoid it, do you put toilet paper inside your triangles/papillotes ? This technique avoid the greasing of self-caught specimens. I have never thought of adding anything to the envelopes such as toilet paper. Should it wrap around the abdomen? or be placed in between the closed wings after the specimen has been dispatched? I've collected thousands of specimens in North America and never had an abdomen stain a wing, and I've never added anything to the envelopes. |
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 23, 2016 17:23:46 GMT
No just fold in half a square of toilet paper that you put in your envelope.
Put the specimen inside this folded toilet paper square.
Tell me if you need a picture
It has 2 BIG advantages :
- specimens do not move inside the envelope, and you avoid scale loss or antennae breakage
- it absorbs the grease of fresh specimens. Lycaenidae in Europe or North America are prone to greasing, same thing with a lot of tropical species. True that this phenomenon of "greasing" is more frequent with tropical species than with holartic species... no idea why.
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Post by Paul K on Jun 23, 2016 17:45:40 GMT
No just fold in half a square of toilet paper that you put in your envelope. Put the specimen inside this folded toilet paper square. Tell me if you need a picture It has 2 BIG advantages : - specimens do not move inside the envelope, and you avoid scale loss or antennae breakage - it absorbs the grease of fresh specimens. Lycaenidae in Europe or North America are prone to greasing, same thing with a lot of tropical species. True that this phenomenon of "greasing" is more frequent with tropical species than with holartic species... no idea why. I don't think the paper would work as the abdomen is still covered by the wings and they will be stained anyway. it may work only for Papilionidae and some Lycaenidae , but not for Pieridae and Nymphalidae ( unless the paper is placed between abdomen and wings which is not ease to do in the field, I've tried before and gave up an idea ). i think the problem is when the specimen is dry and then rehydrate the brown liquid is sometimes released . Why it is not always the case i dont know. It mind be related to the bacteria or fungus which might be presented when specimen is killed and dried. Greasing is not really a problem as it can be cleaned very well by soking in pure acetone for few hours. Paul |
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Post by neominois on Jun 23, 2016 18:02:29 GMT
Thanks for the information. It seems the abdominal secretions are a bit of a mystery to us. Any suggestions as to how one might remove this ugly stain? I'll try africaone's idea of cotton swap and water on one of the specimens.
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 23, 2016 18:08:47 GMT
I don't think the paper would work You cannot imagine how many envelops I have with a totally dirty toilet paper because it absorbed all the extra-grease of the specimen and a specimen without any grease stains. Of course it won't avoid 100% of issues but at least 80%. As you know, I collect mainly Pieridae |
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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 23, 2016 19:15:53 GMT
The brown spotting or staining is caused more so by waste products in the butterflies abdominal gut --- rather than by outright greasing of the specimen. Greasing of a specimen generally means that body (fats) have leached out from the body of the specimen and have consequently invaded the wing surface oftentimes distorting the colors (pigments). While acetone does a pretty good job of body fat removal (grease); it does remain a "double edged sword" so to speak. It can (and usually does) affect the pigmented yellows,greens, and reds on lepidopteran wings by somewhat "dulling" those pigments --- even though the grease has been removed. The colors of those treated areas or whole wings don't (in my opinion) look as vibrant when compared to other similarly fresh caught specimens.
Acetone may remove some of the waste product staining but, it is possible it may imbed some of those waste product chemicals into the scales permanently. This is why africaone mentioned a cotton swab and water as another possibility. A more natural way of really removing "dirt" from a butterflies wing --- rather than grease.
I myself have never been a fan of acetone use. For me (personally) if a specimen gets to looking like it requires an acetone bath --- I toss it out ! I don't even bother as most insects overall are a renewable resource which can be replaced. I have cleaned only a very few using cotton swab + water with reasonable success however, it is never really been100% affective as water will only "remove" certain waste product chemicals and "fade" others.
If you can live with a faded (former)waste product stain than it is an acceptable result. Far better than leaving it alone or potentially distorting the pigmented colors through acetone use. Best of luck.
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Post by deliasfanatic on Jun 23, 2016 19:33:13 GMT
Brown staining on many specimens (especially Nymphalidae) is very different from grease that can be removed with acetone; it seeps out of the abdomen tip after the specimen is papered, rather than suffusing onto the wings from the entire abdomen as happens with grease. Here's what I have found effective for various problems:
1) grease - I have no problem using acetone; it works very well to remove grease from wings and abdomen. I leave it in the acetone bath for a whole day. I'd never think of throwing away an otherwise good specimen simply because it needs to be degreased! Occasionally, one needs a second bath if grease shows up again after awhile. A piece of tissue wrapped around the abdomen will indeed prevent or lessen greasing before it starts, if you are papering a fresh specimen.
2) brown staining - for freshly papered specimens, the tissue-wrapping technique might work. A folded piece of tissue (with the entire specimen placed inside) will work if the specimen's abdomen is long enough to protrude from the wings, but if it's short or folded into the wings, this won't help.
For after-the-fact brown staining...this often happens, or worsens, during the relaxing process. I typically leave specimens in the relaxer for 2-3 days. I'll check them after a day, and if I see a brown droplet coming out, I'll put a piece of folded tissue around the abdomen to absorb it. This will prevent much of the damage.
If the brown stains are already on the wings, you can try the water-and-cotton method mentioned by africaone. Rub very very gently to try to avoid removing scales. Another method that I've used successfully is to fill a hypodermic with hot water, then "blow" the fine stream onto the brown spot(s) repeatedly. Hold the specimen at an angle so that the water drips downward and off of the wings. You may have to do 4-5 (or more) hypodermic syringes of water to remove the staining. I once had a scarce form of P. dardanus female, perfect except for severe meconium staining that stuck the wings together; this method removed nearly all of it after doing it repeatedly.
Many Pieridae (especially Anthocharis and Euchloe) quickly stain in the relaxer; this seems to seep out of the entire body. I've never found a way to remove it, and unfortunately it's particularly ugly on their white wings.
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Post by neominois on Jun 24, 2016 3:19:40 GMT
If the brown stains are already on the wings, you can try the water-and-cotton method mentioned by africaone. Rub very very gently to try to avoid removing scales. Another method that I've used successfully is to fill a hypodermic with hot water, then "blow" the fine stream onto the brown spot(s) repeatedly. Hold the specimen at an angle so that the water drips downward and off of the wings. You may have to do 4-5 (or more) hypodermic syringes of water to remove the staining. I once had a scarce form of P. dardanus female, perfect except for severe meconium staining that stuck the wings together; this method removed nearly all of it after doing it repeatedly. Thank you! this is exactly the information I was looking for. I'll try the hot water and let you know how it works. |
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Post by deliasfanatic on Jun 24, 2016 3:39:15 GMT
Good luck!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 24, 2016 11:06:43 GMT
I think that the staining in the Pierid specimen will have been caused by a drop of fluid expelled from the abdomen soon after death. I have seen this in Pierids and Nymphalids before. This is definitely not grease staining. Hopefully the measures suggested before will remove most of the stain.
Adam.
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Post by Paul K on Jun 24, 2016 12:19:06 GMT
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 24, 2016 13:20:21 GMT
One way to help prevent or reduce the risk of this happening with butterflies that you catch yourself is to take the butterfly out of the envelope the night after you caught it, check for fluid and if found clean it off by rinsing with water and then putting the butterfly back in the envelope. If the fluid is still not dry when you find it there is a much greater chance of washing it off without leaving a stain, but once it has dried the stain dries onto the wing scales and is much harder to remove.
I remember that Charaxes are very prone to the same problem, so much that the fluid can glue the two wings together when it has dried. Luckily this is not generally a problem with my Papilionidae.
Adam.
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