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Post by nomad on Dec 15, 2015 20:08:47 GMT
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Post by nomihoudai on Dec 15, 2015 20:18:07 GMT
We have over 60 million people in the UK. Agriculture is squeezing the soil for every single penny of profit that can be made. Industry is taking grip on any other part of nature left,...
...and butterflies decline? How on Earth is that possible?! I really don't get it.
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Post by nomad on Dec 15, 2015 20:27:54 GMT
60 million now, many more millions in just a few decades time.
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Post by timmsyrj on Dec 16, 2015 7:01:44 GMT
I've said it before, the U.K wilderness is not as wild as it was in the 70's, constant strimming, mowing and mulching of the roadside verges, woodlands are not "worked" anymore, continued coppicing of woodlands lead to perfect growing conditions for grasses, violets etc which, with loads of fresh young plant growth leads to population explosions of insects, putting a fence around an area of woodland and calling it a nature reserve doesn't help if it's just left to over grow and shade out all larval food plants.
A.paphia ( the silver washed fritillary ) has increased its range in the last few years, which is very good news for this species, but it's a species that likes mature, shady wood land, those on decline don't, unless the woodlands are managed properly you can't have both, small heath, wall and hedge brown all open grassland or woodland edge grass feeding species, keep on mowing and covering their larvae at least the countryside will look neat and tidy for the conservationists when they do there monitoring and counting, it's probably a blessing there aren't too many butterflies around now, idiots can't count..
Rich
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 16, 2015 15:24:47 GMT
"60 million now, many more millions in just a few decades time." And that's indeed the real issue. An economic model based on nature destruction + uncontrolled human population is transforming the Earth paradise in hell.  |
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Post by nomad on Dec 16, 2015 18:23:05 GMT
Whatever you think or believe of conservationists, they are not all bad and people like Oates and Thomas have saved British Butterflies. Two good examples are Hamearis lucina and Boloria euphrosyne, which without a intense study of those butterflies requirements, we would have seen their extinction. B. euphrosyne might have hung on in Scotland but big deal, it was once abundant in England. Study and habitat management has also saved Argynnis adippe in Southern England and Wales. People across Britain have given money to save the butterflies remaining habitat . Some of this butterfly habitat are now nature reserves but there are other important areas on private land. Then teams of dedicated volunteers work hard on this habitat and manage it, to make the conditions ideal for those rare species. I for one would mourn greatly the loss of any British Butterfly and do mourn the decrease of once widespread and common species like Lasiommata megera.
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Post by timmsyrj on Dec 16, 2015 20:24:42 GMT
But the military training grounds especially Salisbury plain where no reserves or conservation work goes on are alive with insects, because the habitat is perfect, rough grassland landscape disturbed areas ideal for wild flowers, bomb craters are perfect little habitats. Nothing at all to do with conservation work, quite the opposite.
I watched wild Vietnam last week and it amazed me that they couldn't believe how the wildlife had flourished In such a war torn country in the 40 years since the war, the fact is the it was flourishing before the war, just not recorded, and after the war no body went because it was still unsafe, in exploded ordinance etc.
I don't doubt some species have been saved by conservation work, but 99% are not real conservationists, they're butterfly huggers who don't know the first thing about the species needs, but it makes them feel better when they pay there membership fees.
Rich
euphrosyne's decline is a result of the coppicing I mentioned, it used to flourish in clearings just after they were coppiced for several years untill the violets became too shady, and lucina likes grassy banks with plenty of cowslips, too many trees shade these out, both of these species are extremely easy to breed and in large numbers if you have sufficient room and foodplant.
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Post by nomad on Dec 16, 2015 20:51:21 GMT
I agree that today's habitat management is just habitat restoration but if it does not happen then no rare butterflies will inhabit those areas. Yes Salisbury Plain is great, because the military have provided protection for the unimproved grasslands and Hamearis lucina occurs there but its certainly only confined to a few areas. Salisbury Plain has survived intact and the butterflies thrive there largely due the Military keeping the habitat right by their intensive exercises by tanks and troops. Salisbury Plain is good for grassland species but not species such as B.euphrosyne. The fickle species will only survive in woodlands which are cleared or coppiced on a regular basis. So you need management because no one else bothers to coppice today. Butterfly hugger, that's a strange term for non collectors, I believe it comes from our American friends. Can you hug a butterfly, I have been nose to nose with them but have not tried to embrace one  They have hugged me, I had an iris on my boot, leg and hand and have photos to prove it, but not the one on my hand taken from my boot. At least now no one is blaming collectors for the demise of our butterflies, well perhaps a few misinformed idiots . |
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 17, 2015 13:35:31 GMT
wildlife had flourished In such a war torn country in the 40 years since the war, the fact is the it was flourishing before the war, just not recorded, and after the war no body went because it was still unsafe, in exploded ordinance etc. I don't doubt some species have been saved by conservation work, but 99% are not real conservationists, they're butterfly huggers who don't know the first thing about the species needs, but it makes them feel better when they pay there membership fees.
During the civil war in Solomon Islands the jungle quickly over-ran what man had made. In only a couple years roads and abandoned homes disappeared. The fresh regrowth was a boon to butterflies (and other insects). Once the war was settling, and people moved back into their homes and cleared the roads, the wonderfully overgrown flower and vegetable gardens were reduced, and so were all those butterflies.
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Post by nomad on Dec 17, 2015 17:18:59 GMT
Britain is over populated with an intensive agriculture policy that sprays farmed land to death. These chemicals cause problems on nearby habitats. It is no good comparing what has happened in tropical countries to our Butterfly problem. Although that information is certainly interesting. Everyone knows from collectors to the conservationist that butterflies are in serious decline in the UK.
You only need to walk the fields, woods and downs, to see it for yourself.
Once it was just the rare butterflies that were in danger but now it's the common species that are in dire straits.
Lycaena phlaeas was once common everywhere, now in Wiltshire I have a job to see two together.
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2015 6:11:41 GMT
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2015 6:16:20 GMT
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Post by timmsyrj on Dec 18, 2015 8:39:27 GMT
Of course they are, my sister in law works at morrisons and you wouldn't believe how much organic veg gets returned and thrown away because of insects (caterpillars mostly) people want pest free veg and gardens full of butterflies and they can't understand why they can't have both. With this mild winter so far I think next year numbers will be very low, all the parasites are surviving our winters which only adds to the pesticide problem and habitat loss, they don't stand a chance.
I remember when the bbc wildlife "experts" where telling us to leave a clump of nettles to help the butterflies, do they know just how many nettles an egg batch of small tortoiseshell (A.urticae) require, and unless the nettles are covered the larvae will succumb to parasite attack.
" they're doomed, they're all doomed"
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2015 16:34:24 GMT
Bhutanitis ludlowi has an interesting way of protecting at least some of its eggs from the tiny egg parasitoids. It lays its eggs piled on top of each other in a mound shape, so only the outer layer of eggs can be parasitised.
By the way, Rich, one effect of El Nino in the Pacific is that the late part of the European winter should be longer and colder than normal, so even though it is mild right now (hmmm ... what you call 'mild' at least, downright freezing for me) it may well get cold enough to kill a lot of the parasitoids that overwinter as adults.
I have noticed here that pupal parasitoids of Papilio species I breed go into diapause for a few weeks, just like their hosts. Presumably when daylength and other factors induces diapause the larva releases hormones inside its body to inform its tissues that it will go into diapause, and as parasitoid larvae inside are literally swimming in these hormones they will receive the stimulus to go into diapause from the host.
Adam.
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They have hugged me, I had an iris on my boot, leg and hand and have photos to prove it, but not the one on my hand taken from my boot.
