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Post by nomad on Dec 11, 2014 20:17:19 GMT
I would be interested to know what collectors of this interesting genus consider to be the rarest species -subspecies. Also what is the highest elevation that a Parnassius species has been recorded at and where. Are there any listed cities Parnassius and are many species legally protected in countries other than P. apollo in Europe.
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 12, 2014 11:44:52 GMT
All French Parnassinae are protected, including phoebus.
Interesting to see these impressive elevation of the Himalayan species. Must be quite an adventure to go and catch them.
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Post by nomad on Dec 12, 2014 17:04:58 GMT
Radusho. Very informative information. Thank you. I had no idea some of the P. apollo subspecies were some of the most sought after and valued butterflies. Those elevations are astounding heights for a butterfly species. I expect there are no complete Parnassius collections. Although I guess yours must be very large and of a high quality. I wonder who you would consider the greatest ever Parnassius field collector.
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Post by xavm (Xavier) on Jan 6, 2015 14:05:50 GMT
Hi All,
As French entomologist I had the chance to collect some few samples of subspecies of apollo which disappeared the next decade. I would say for France, now the most endangered species is Parnassius (sacerdos) gazeli, although flying in a National Park.
Subspecies of apollo like meridionalis, franscisi... disappeared in the 1975 years, I would not consider them as rare, but as fossils.
Cheers,
Xavm
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 6, 2015 14:07:40 GMT
Good to see you here Xavier !
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Post by trehopr1 on Jan 6, 2015 22:56:25 GMT
I have a specimen of Parnassius smintheus with label data which was collected in 1951 in Ward Colorado / Mount Baldy; 11,500 ft. The confusion that I find in looking at (heights) on labels is whether the specimen was specifically collected at that height OR if the height given is that of the mountain it was found on. I know that if I was the one doing the collecting MY labels would read "collected at 11,500 ft" with my initials on the same label.
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Post by xavm (Xavier) on Jan 7, 2015 9:34:30 GMT
Subspecies of apollo like meridionalis, franscisi... disappeared in the 1975 years, I would not consider them as rare, but as fossils. not all apollo ssp. extinct in that period are rare...some were frequently collected and they are present in good numbers in privat collections (e.g. marcianus, meridionalis-dozens were sold on Drouot) while others are literarly impossible to get e.g. braniskoi -extinct before its description, except types very few collected, super rare in privat collections (many fake specimens is around!!!) only 2 people collected this taxon; rarest of all Slovak apollo ssp. I agree with ssp meridionalis not being that rare. Subspecies from northern Massif Central (Monts Forez) were almost impossible to get (only very few samples are known from this area).
Regarding the 'fake' specimen you mention, this is unfortunately the case for a lot of 'rare' apollo subspecies. It is easy to make a fake as several apollo 'subspecies' are just impossible to determine without the location label.
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Post by nomad on Jan 9, 2015 16:41:06 GMT
not all apollo ssp. extinct in that period are rare...some were frequently collected and they are present in good numbers in privat collections (e.g. marcianus, meridionalis-dozens were sold on Drouot) while others are literarly impossible to get e.g. braniskoi -extinct before its description, except types very few collected, super rare in privat collections (many fake specimens is around!!!) only 2 people collected this taxon; rarest of all Slovak apollo ssp. I agree with ssp meridionalis not being that rare. Subspecies from northern Massif Central (Monts Forez) were almost impossible to get (only very few samples are known from this area).
Regarding the 'fake' specimen you mention, this is unfortunately the case for a lot of 'rare' apollo subspecies. It is easy to make a fake as several apollo 'subspecies' are just impossible to determine without the location label.
If you cannot determine an apollo butterfly from a locality without the data, it might suggest, that the population from that area, is not a good subspecies ?. |
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Post by xavm (Xavier) on Jan 9, 2015 16:45:58 GMT
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Post by bobw on Jan 9, 2015 17:32:10 GMT
If you cannot determine an apollo butterfly from a locality without the data, it might suggest, that the population from that area, is not a good subspecies ?. Absolutely! No species has been split as mush as apollo. There are a huge number of described "subspecies", many of which were only made to get the author's name in print or to make money from selling paratypes. Only a handful of European ones would be called subspecies in groups that are less "overstudied". If Vanessa cardui was a Parnassius it would probably have 50 subspecies in Europe!
Bob
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Post by mnemoperkele on Feb 10, 2015 22:27:20 GMT
Dear Sirs, the discussion started as "the rarest Parnassius species" and what is the common opinion, is the rarest species arcticus, davydovi, kumanoensis, dongalaica or nandadaviens (or what was the name of that aberration)? I've seen not so many ruckbeili for sale (lately there was a pair in ebay) and also dongalaica/dongalaicus was not easy to get. I live in area where we have only 2 species of Parnassius (both of them protected) and I really don't know what would be the rarest spacies (not extinct ssp. of apollo) but maybe this discussion will give some answers... |
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 11, 2015 8:24:48 GMT
Welcome to the forum mnemoperkele !  To answer your question, I would say that no Parnassius species are rare, some are localised though. I would say that ruckbeili is the hardest to find today. But I let our Parnassius specialists give you more accurate information. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 11, 2015 9:05:56 GMT
Parnassius nandadevinensis was placed within P. kumaonensis by Rose & Weiss (2011). They also treated nobuko from Nepal within this species, which they separated from P. stoliczkanus due to sympatry. Michel et al. (2008) included P. nobuko in their DNA analysis, and showed that it is different to P. stoliczkanus.
In reality rarity is basically a result of accessibility to collectors. In the case of most Parnassius this is generally due to difficulty of actually reaching the right habitat at the right time, and then having good enough weather conditions when you are there to enable the butterflies to emerge from their hiding places and be visible to the collector. Other 'rare' butterflies may be 'rare' purely because they live in the canopy, and never visit the ground. In the right season at the right place these canopy butterflies are probably rather common, but unless you get up into the canopy you would never see them. Another good example would be some subspecies of Papilio indra which only live on the cliff sides of canyons, so are almost impossible to catch.
If butterflies were actually rare in their own habitat they would have gone extinct long ago.
Adam.
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Post by mygos on Feb 11, 2015 11:05:58 GMT
If butterflies were actually rare in their own habitat they would have gone extinct long ago. So true Adam ! A+, Michel |
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Post by sensedigger on Jul 10, 2015 14:12:48 GMT
This one is definitely among the rarest: Parnassius charltonius ljudmilae from Ghissar (a PARATYPE, though I don't have the photo of its red label). Over the recent years, several groups of poachers and a tiny group of collectors visited the type locality of this outstanding (in many terms) ssp., but none succeeded: the butterfly was simply not encountered...  |
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