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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 4, 2015 5:46:21 GMT
The purpose of this thread is to seek out some help or suggestions regarding the preparation of skippers. To begin, I guess you might call me an "old hand" in this hobby.I've had the passion for 50 yrs.running but, my lepi interests have always centered on true butterflies. Skippers have never struck a cord with me because where I live in the Midwestern U.S. they all tend to be about the size of a dime and are largely varied shades of brown + orange. Generally speaking not all that desirable to bother with.
However, recently I visited a friend and fellow collector who has a pretty descent collection of them made of coarse over many years of trial + error + determination. Naturally, upon close observation I sighted some of the suttle differences between them as well as the suttle beauty of these creatures. So after leaving, I thought to myself (why not give it a go) and try collecting up some this summer just to see how many species I may have been overlooking all these years.
Well, so far I've gone out twice. Managed to pick up 10 nice ex-pupa looking adults. After all my efforts I've come away with 2 really nice prepared examples --- out of 10 ! I absolutely hate this. Never have I had or can I recall ever having such difficulty working up anything. Of coarse I've never really prepared up anything smaller than a Lycaenid.
I know their must be some kind of methodology involved in preparing up skippers. I'm just not prepared to spend years getting there (with results I'm pleased with). Any suggestions would be appreciated....
The thing is after all these years I'm still a collector with a heart. When I collect my OWN material I have only always taken (in most cases)just enough to have a small series of anything. Perhaps 6 or 7 examples at best. So, it bothers me in this case that I collected up 10 nice ones to wind up with 2. And then on top of that I inadvertently killed off 6 others that I thought were good --- but were damaged. Maybe the sum total is: just don't bother with them. Let someone else. Thanks for listening....
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 4, 2015 7:56:35 GMT
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Post by africaone on Jun 4, 2015 8:30:35 GMT
the only technic I know (and that I used for any of this kind) is to cut the thoracic muscles ! easy to learn and quite efficient
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 4, 2015 9:15:50 GMT
Interesting.
Where exactly do you cut ? Any picture ?
Do you cut it with a scalpel ?
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Post by mygos on Jun 4, 2015 10:17:35 GMT
Hesperiidae is a nightmare unless they are fresh  A+, Michel |
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Post by Paul K on Jun 4, 2015 11:54:00 GMT
Yes they are nightmare.
I ruined all specimens from South America. Now I don't really want to collect them.
When I have read about cuting muscles I've got another idea . Maybe it would be easer to cut off all 4 wings , pin the body upside down and then just glue back wings also upside down use a little drops of glue to the thorax and one between forewing and hide wing to keep the wings in the right position . I have never try that , but I think it could work.
Paul
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Post by cabintom on Jun 4, 2015 12:21:32 GMT
Disclaimer: I'm still working to perfect my technique. Usually, I rehydrate the skipper for 2, maybe 3, days. Then before attempting to spread it, I lay it on it's side on the table top. Next, I take my forceps and repeatedly push down, with a firm amount of force, at the base of the forewing (just beneath where it connects to the body) until it "flaps" quite easily. Repeat, but pushing on the base of the hindwing. Flip the specimen over and repeat for the second side.    They're not perfect... but I'll get there someday! Tom |
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 4, 2015 12:37:34 GMT
They look perfect to me ! Congrats.
I use the same technique than you to spread my Delias.
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Post by Paul K on Jun 4, 2015 13:37:02 GMT
My big fail in attempt to spread the Costa Rican skipper . Keep in mind that before the wings were perfect. Tom i think you did great job on yours.  |
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Post by africaone on Jun 4, 2015 14:25:57 GMT
difficult for me to explain the technique in English. cutting muscle needs a scalpel and to find the right muscle just under the the insertion of wings. You recognise the good muscle as when you push on it with the scalpel it makes the wings move. Be careful to not cut the whole thorax (this seems a joke but ...  ). When cut the wings rest well attached to the body but it is like free (or near) without force that maintain it. When it is dried, the wings rest at the good position as for a normal setting. The technique was teached to me by a famous Sphingid Collector (JM Cadiou). I was very doubtful at the beginning and I missed some specimen. Today I am happy to have learned it despite it was not obvious  . I know that some hesperid specialists are using this technique. try with some defect specimen to find the right way.  |
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Post by cabintom on Jun 5, 2015 4:02:12 GMT
I said not perfect because I still managed to scratch several of the wings near their bases... I have this problem with Lycaenidae as well. I think I need to develop a lighter touch.
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Post by Paul K on Jun 5, 2015 12:46:12 GMT
I said not perfect because I still managed to scratch several of the wings near their bases... I have this problem with Lycaenidae as well. I think I need to develop a lighter touch. Sometimes happens to me too , specially when my hands are shaky.  |
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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 5, 2015 18:39:41 GMT
Thankyou cabintom and africaone for your suggestions. I am on a learning curve right now so I will bring to light anything that SEEMS to work for me with some measure of consistency. One obvious thing is the point Mygos made about the need for skippers to be fresh. Once rigor sets in than perhaps it's time to employ either of the methods mentioned by cabintom or africaone. Anything that I learn or mention will regard fresh caught specimens. I am a bit hesitant to try africaone's method because the skippers that I find are the size of a dime. I can't imagine cutting wing muscles on things so small.
Anyway, two things to mention. I do think that there is a "critical time frame" for leaving skippers in the kill jar. My agent of choice is Ethyl Acetate. Upon bringing my skippers home alive I transfer 2 or 3 to my kill bottle. I only leave them in there 15 to 18 minutes. Upon removal they are limp, flexible and relatively easy to manipulate. But, mind you that you will still find individuals that seem to be "locked up" and hopeless to work with. The other day when I put 5 at once in the jar and left them for 40 minutes all were hopelessly locked-up and lost to either chemical effect or rigor or both. So don't leave your fresh caught stuff in their too long.
Another thing I've learned is don't be shy about collecting up several at once if available. When the common species are out they seem to be out in number. And the only way you can get good clean specimens is by knocking over all that you collect and sort as you go. Because many show signs of wear surprisingly. Maybe it's all that active darting flight ! But, good clean ones can be found among the fodder -- just don't put too many togather in a jar for take home. Bring several jars.
And while I will admit that I'm still uneasy about collecting several to wind up with a few; I will say the effort is worth it when you can look upon the nice one's you have taken and the fact that you have something different for your collection. I'm also keeping in mind that I really only want to have a small sampling of any particular species. Say maybe 4 or 5 examples. So I guess I'll be sharpening my observation skills soon so that I'm not re-collecting species that I already have.
Skippers are pretty little things in their own right. I consider them a NICHE interest among collectors. And they do pale generally to the true butterflies. There certainly is more challenge involved in securing good examples. However, they are something rather unique and different to have and gaze upon in a collection.
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Post by cabintom on Jun 5, 2015 19:19:39 GMT
Why bring them home alive to then transfer to the killing jar? If you're concerned about not over-collecting (I'm still not sure why you would be...) and about the specimens being pristine, it's probably better to immediately use the 'pinching' method to kill them. I've not had issues with specimens "locking up" and they're easy to set later that day or evening. Otherwise, they're a lot more likely introduce wear to their wings while you wait to move them into the kill jar.
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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 5, 2015 19:54:22 GMT
Speaking for myself cabintom I've never been comfortable pinching anything much smaller than a cabbage butterfly. Anything smaller than that is put into the killing bottle. Too easy for this collector to pinch off legs and crush bodies. I've never become adept at the pinch method although I know it's widely used. And while you say that you've not had any rigor issues with your specimens --- I find that hard to believe. The ones I've collected as of late seem to stiffen up pretty quickly not long after removal from the jar. Perhaps, it's the agent I'm using? I suppose I have not learned enough at this point to speak much about these variables. But, I will continue to report any positive or negative findings that I come across.
If the pinch method works for you than that's a good thing for both you and all the other collectors that utilize that method. However, I'm trying to work out a methodology for collectors like myself who don't use OR are uncomfortable with the pinch method. And while that paralyzing method may seem almost commonplace or universal among collectors I can tell you that their are those of us who don't use it on everything OR for everything that we collect.
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).
. I know that some hesperid specialists are using this technique.
