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Post by felixb on May 22, 2015 15:05:19 GMT
Hi Guys
as I ´m really interested in Hybrid breeding, especially in the machaon group, I would like to talk about your experiences in this topic. I talked to Adam before and got some good knowledge about it.
Maybe someone here can tell me of own experiments, how many generations, backcrosses and vitality could have been observed? I also would like to see some pictures of your hybrids.
Do you know about hybrids of more than 2 species? hybrid crossed with a third species?
Does anybody know if there are other hybrids with hospiton beside machaon?
I personally breed some hybrids right know and try to develope a nice hybrid line.I will show pictures later here. I work with hippocrates, machaon gorganus, oregonius, polyxenes coloro, polyxenes asterius, brevicauda brevicauda.
best regards
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Post by felixb on May 26, 2015 11:48:35 GMT
Hello to all
my first records for this year:
machaon gorganus ( france) x hippocrates ( Japan)
polyxenes asterius ( Michigan USA) x machaon gorganus ( Switzerland)
brevicauda brevicauda(Canada) x machaon gorganus (Switzerland)
Can someone here tell me if there are records for other species except machaon, that have been crossed with hospiton?
besides the machaon group, I also bred dehaanii dehaanii x dehaanii hachijonis
my results from last years breeding are F1 fertility and healthy F2 generations but breakdown in the F3 generation. maybe this was due to inbreeding so I will try again with different hybridlines without heritage of just 1 F0 Couple. Also hybrid males can be mated in the F2 Generation, the F2 females won´t lay eggs. if so, the eggs are not fertile.
regards from Germany
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 26, 2015 16:47:17 GMT
"my results from last years breeding are ..."
Which crosses are you referring to here, or is it a general comment across all of your hybrids?
I found that crosses between brevicauda and gorganus produced fertile males which I crossed with hippocrates females successfully, and made several more backcross generations using hippocrates females and hybrid males. However it was impossible to make an F2 brevicauda x gorganus because all the males emerged within a few weeks of pupating, but all the females went into diapause and didn't emerge until the following year. Did you find the same problem with your brevicauda and gorganus cross? Interestingly the offspring of (brevicauda x gorganus) male x hippocrates female did not have the same problem, both sexes emerged normally.
F2 hybrids are much harder to make than back crosses between hybrid males and pure species females. When I sib-crossed the hybrids I got very few fertile and many infertile eggs, and only a few of the larvae that hatched made it to adults.
Adam.
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Post by felixb on May 27, 2015 9:32:57 GMT
I used the F1 Hybrids machaon melitensis x polyxenes asterius. some mated naturally at the window before I tried the handpairing.I had 3 females laying eggs . Not many but al fertile. So the F2 was very vital.
backcrossed the males with pure machaon gorganus was succesfull but I did not raise the cats to adult because of a virus infection of AL my papilios.
I also crossed hippocrates with coloro and had nice black caterpillars.also zelicaon x hippocrates and others ( everything of the machaon goup I could get) but the infection killed them. this year I already got large cats and changed the breeding conditions. Now they are doing much better.
to avoid the problems you mentioned, I wanted to try hybrid x hybrid or hybrid x 3rd species ( like you with your brevicauda x machaon crossed with hippocrates)
I read in different papers, that some hybrid swarms occur in north america , with different heritage of either machaon , polyxenes or zelicaon. so it seems, with a large enough genetical pool, you can breed a hybrid line healthy enough to life on for generations.
best regards
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 27, 2015 18:39:21 GMT
If you were rearing machaon group in boxes you probably did not have a virus infection. It is an immunity problem caused by the stress of rearing them in poor conditions, and too crowded together.
What happens is that the bacteria that naturally occur in smaller quantities on the skin and inside the bodies of all caterpillars, that the immue system of the larva can normally control, multiply rapidly when the larva is stressed and kill it.
The best way to rear machaon group larvae is in the open air (inside or outside, but protected against parasitoids) using plants in pots with only one larva per plant. Good airflow and separation of the larvae is very important in reducing this problem that will kill all the larvae if not controlled. One good way to help reduce bacterial load on the skin of the larvae is to mist spray them and the plants with half strength Milton solution once they reach 3rd instar. This kills bacteria on the skin of the larvae, but will not affect them or the foodplants.
What I find is that generally when I rear each generation, even in the best conditions I can give them (bearing in mind that here the climate is not ideal for these butterflies), I start having problems with the second half of the larvae in each batch. The first part of the generation develops normally and produces healthy pupae, but later larvae start to develop sickness. The first obvious symptoms are faeces sticking to the anus of the larva followed by a shortening of the body. Some larvae turn black and liquid full of bacteria oozes out. Some of the larvae survive to pupate, but many of those die as pupae. It is best to destroy all larvae that start to show symptoms, and it is important to keep everything as clean as possible - cages, equipment, plants and especially your hands!
Adam.
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Post by felixb on May 29, 2015 8:38:45 GMT
You are right Adam, i reared them in a high density. first try for a mass breeding and also my last dry, as it also switched over to my normal breedings with just a few larvae and much space.so I rear them in netcages for good air condition and in small groups.
I never heard of the statement you just made.Never mind it is a bacteria of the cat itself.
I can´t get a good translation for milton.can you explain what it is? this tip is by far the best I could get.
sick larvae produced some pupae in my breeding, but just 1 hatched with a very unvital and small sized male.not able to fly also.
regards
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 29, 2015 9:01:08 GMT
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Post by felixb on Jul 29, 2015 13:34:08 GMT
Hi to all
I now have (brevicauda brevicauda x machaon gorganus) x ( machaon gorganus x polyxenes asterius)
the brevicauda x machaon male and the female of machaon x polyxenes have both been intermediate in F1. Out of 30 machaon x polyxenes, I did have 2 that were exactly between both species, with a yellow body with a dark line on it, going on to top with the typical polyxenes painting with black and white dots. I also did have 1 male of the brevicauda x machaon that looks the same. I never experienced that before!F1 has been totaly polyxenes like in my past breedings.
I paired the intermediate male brevicauda( he was also the largest one) with the intermediate machaon x polyxenes female( she looked like a black machaon, not mind polyxenes)
the female laid several eggs, fertility quote more than 90%, so was the hatchingrate.
The cats are now growing in 3rd Instar and I hope they will make it to a nice adult, hopefully also intermediate! I will then show pictures!
about one part of the pairing I´m certain. I do not now I if the used female was machaon x polyxenes or polyxenes x machaon. I have had both combinations in the same cage. nevermind, it is the hybrid of the both species, I just don´t now which one was father or mother.
best regards
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