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Post by felixb on Feb 5, 2015 10:15:27 GMT
Hi to all, my first post in this new forum! please have a look at my F2 Hybrid male (( Papilio machaon melitensis x Papilio polyxenes asterius ) x ( Papilio machaon melitensis x Papilio polyxenes asterius )) what do you think it is? You can see different markings on the hindwings of the specimen.The ocell is coloured different on each hindwing.On one side,also the black dot is missing. Some blue markings are black on the left hindwing. best regards Attachments:
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 5, 2015 12:54:03 GMT
Welcome to the forum Felix !
Splendid specimen!!
Looks like an aberration to me, but I let Papilionidae experts give you a more accurate judgement.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 5, 2015 19:31:14 GMT
Felix, Good to see you here! It is interesting to see an F2 machaon x polyxenes. I expect that up to 25% of the adults should be machaon-like (more yellow than black). From the photo I think this specimen may have some structural damage (perhaps a blood spot inside the wing) around the first submarginal spot from the eye spot on the left hindwing. Either that or there was a problem with the pupa. However, I also noticed a significant incidence of deformities in my F2 crosses of (( brevicauda x machaon) x hippocrates) and found that I obtained very few fertile eggs from these F2 crosses, unlike backcrosses of the hybrid (( brevicauda x machaon) x hippocrates) male with a hippocrates female. These backcrosses produced plenty of fertile eggs, and I was able to backcross with hippocrates females several times. Here is an example of ( brevicauda x machaon) x hippocrates:  I also saw strange eyespot aberrations with my hybrids, especially with the red scales breaking out of the eyespot towards the discal part of the wing. I certainly don't think that there is any gynandromorphy involved. Adam. |
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Post by felixb on Feb 21, 2015 11:37:00 GMT
Hi !
Adam, you are right. approximately 25% are machaon like. your observations in breeding are very interesting. The specimen showing here is the only one with some aberration.al siblings are wheter polyxenes or machaon morph. some are intermediate. but there is not other specimen with this difference.maybe this is also due to the F2 genetic problems in morphological outcoming of 2 hybrids pairing with each other.so the combination gets harder and the mixed up specimen can hardly develope up to adulthood because theire genetics are to moxed up to fit in.maybe this is the explanation why you can backcross your specimen ( what is also my observation)with a pure species but can´t breed the F3. But maybe a F3 would work If they are not the offspring from just 1 couple as grand-grand parents. if I keep a whole hybrid swarm, lets say 5 hybrid couples and theire offspring, maybe the F3 would work as they are no directly siblings. inbreeding seems to be a problem in this hybrid strains.
what size is your 3 species hybrid showen above? is it larger than the origin species? my F1 was pretty strong and al polyxenes like (as polyxenes is dominant and maybe some kind of heterosis effect took place as in some vegetable hybrid growings in F1) F2 was divided in the 75%/25% rule of Mendels genetic rules (recessive-dominant breeding)and also a bit smaler with a lack of agility.
regards
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 21, 2015 20:11:15 GMT
It is about the same size as a large European machaon, but smaller than hippocrates. After 2 more backcrosses to female [/i]hippocrates[/i] I got some much larger black forms. I made a hybrid hippocrates male x (hippocrates x machaon) female, and those produced very big offspring.
Yes, I think you are right about the incompatibility of the hybrid genes causing unusual aberrations. I remember reading elsewhere (maybe Ae or Clarke) that breakdown in the anal eyespot pattern is common in hybrids. The relatively few F2 hybrids I managed to breed were generally distinctly aberrant.
Right now I have larvae of Canadian polyxenes, Spanish (Murcia) machaon and hybrids between the two. The hybrids are growing much faster than either of the parents, and I have many more of them from a single female polyxenes compared with the number of larvae from 2 females of pure polyxenes.
Adam.
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