Clearwing from Brazil

[neominois]

Please help with the confirmation of this species.  I believe it to be Dircenna dero.

Thanks so much!

Data:

Brazil
Aruja San Paulo
21 June 2003

[borearctia]

I am not a specialist for the Ithomiine genus.
But I'm quite sure it is Dircenna dero ssp.
The species is quite common in Sao Paulo
The most common ssp in Sao Paulo is Dircenna dero rhoeo
Another ssp occurring in Sao Paulo is Dircenna dero celtina

Andreas

[Adam Cotton]

May 5, 2017 12:32:37 GMT borearctia said:

I am not a specialist for the Ithomiine genus.
But I'm quite sure it is Dircenna dero ssp.
The species is quite common in Sao Paulo
The most common ssp in Sao Paulo is Dircenna dero rhoeo
Another ssp occurring in Sao Paulo is Dircenna dero celtina

Andreas

Presumably the two subspecies occur in different parts of Sao Paolo State, as two different subspecies cannot normally occur in the same locality. There are cases where two butterfly subspecies are separated by a relatively small distance, for example when the subspecies are found at different altitudes of the same mountain range.

If they are found together in the exact same place, then they are either separate species or forms of the same taxon and not true subspecies.

Adam.

[Paul K]

Adam,
It is interesting and I agree that two subspecies should not occur in the same area but two examples just come to my mind.

Ko Tao-Thailand. Very small 20sq km island well insulated from main land and neighbouring islands.
Two subspecies of Euploea core ssp.godartii and ssp.graminifera inhabits same areas.

Kleinburg conservation area just 10 km north of Toronto-Canada.
Two subspecies of Limenitis arthemis inhabits the same forest area: ssp.arthemis and astyanax.

Perhaps if this theory has to be confirm it is possible that those two examples are actually different species.

Paul

[deliasfanatic]

I'm not familiar with the Euploea, but the two ssp of Limenitis are well known to intergrade over a broad area at the edges of their ranges. These intergrades consist of every stage of variation from one taxon to the other (and are very interesting indeed). Are the E. core subspecies similiarly at the edges of their ranges, and/or are intergrades known?

[Adam Cotton]

I see Paul K replied with photos of Euploea core here: collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/656/southeastern-asian-butterflies?page=13

Indeed, very often two subspecies can intergrade in a 'hybrid zone' in the regions where they meet. Sometimes they are found as distinct forms, and sometimes with a range of intermediates between the two. Obviously in the latter case they are the same species, but sometimes where there are two distinct forms without intergrades it is possible that actually there are two different species which only overlap in a small area, as opposed to two subspecies. Modern DNA analysis can tell us which is the case, and also when both forms are found in the reared offspring of a single female we can be certain they are the same species.

Adam.

[borearctia]

May 5, 2017 15:05:21 GMT Adam Cotton said:

Presumably the two subspecies occur in different parts of Sao Paolo State, as two different subspecies cannot normally occur in the same locality. There are cases where two butterfly subspecies are separated by a relatively small distance, for example when the subspecies are found at different altitudes of the same mountain range.

If they are found together in the exact same place, then they are either separate species or forms of the same taxon and not true subspecies.

Adam.

Officially celtina and rhoeo are subspecies from Dircenna dero.
But years ago there were discussions about if these were good species.
The state of Sao Paulo is almost 250.000 square kilometers. (The same size as the UK)
In the 2016 species list of Sao Paulo (prefecture) both ssp are listed.
(Http://www.prefeitura.sp.gov.br/cidade/secretarias/upload/pubbiodiversidademunsp2016.pdf) Species No. 116 + 117

Andreas

[NathanGrosse]

May 5, 2017 18:44:23 GMT Paul K said:

Kleinburg conservation area just 10 km north of Toronto-Canada.
Two subspecies of Limenitis arthemis inhabits the same forest area: ssp.arthemis and astyanax.

Very interesting, I hadn't really made the connection between the subspecies geographic range rule and these taxa.  Both subspecies are also present here in western Wisconsin, USA.