A case of arion.

[nomad]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/10/bristol-man-in-court-accused-of-capturing-protected-large-blue-butterflies

[wollastoni]

Stupid man (if guilty).
Collectors don't need such bad publicity... especially in the UK.

[nomad]

Agreed. Almost unbelievable  but sadly a very  true  story 

[luehdorfia]

and not to mention that it is absolutely stupid to collect a re-introduced species, it is pointless, worthless, does not make any sense.The original ssp is long extinct. As one member on insectnet said about this case, it is like catching a morpho in a butterfly house here in England.

[timmsyrj]

Jan 12, 2017 17:38:52 GMT luehdorfia said:

As one member on insectnet said about this case, it is like catching a morpho in a butterfly house here in England.

I suppose that's true, a true scientific specimen needs to be wild collected with accurate data, but I for one would rather have a South American species reared in the U.K than have no specimen at all, not that I'd collect in a butterfly house.

collectors don't need bad publicity like this guy, you can't get a much more high profile species here I the U.K,  irelitive of the species, where they fly are all nature reserves so it would be illegal to catch Pieris napae there. 

For god's sake don't let the anti collecting brigade think we only want wild collected specimens, I'm more than happy to add bred, captive reared specimens so long as the label states this and if possible parents origin, to my collection.

Rich

[nomad]

Jan 12, 2017 17:38:52 GMT luehdorfia said:

As one member on insectnet said about this case, it is like catching a morpho in a butterfly house here in England.

There is really has no comparison with arion in England to a morpho in a butterfly house. An ideal scenario would have not to have let our own British subspecies become extinct in the first place. However, there is no changing history, it did and that is that. So if you want to put the species back you have to find the next best thing, which Simcox did in Sweden. I believe it is not true, as one current Large Blue expert states, that the nominate Swedish Large Blue is identical to the British extinct race, for those that were once found in disjunct localities were different. Those from Cornwall were a much brighter blue than those from the Cotswolds and the verso spotting is different.

Butterfly houses are just caged butterflies, Large Blues have been successfully reintroduced and fly wild in England. They are no different to many other introduced species except they are of foreign origin. Introduced to one location on the Polden Hills in Somerset, an old locality for the British subspecies, they have spread to other sites along those hills.

The Large Blue is a very fickle butterfly and so is its host ant, the sward in the reserves where it flies are managed by selective grazing to keep it open and short, because there was a lot of changes in the old habitat, such as Scrub and long grass, which caused the extinction in the first place. It is nice to see Large Blues flying in England, it saves you going to Sweden or elsewhere to watch that particular butterfly. However, instead of seeing the nominate arion flying in the Cotswold with its uniform appearance, how I would have liked to have seen eutyphron, and its dark form that occurred there, cotswoldensis, or was that a good subspecies as Goodson & Read (1969) thought so. I believe it was, because Fruhstorfer, 1915 based his description of eutyphron from specimens captured in Cornwall. One must always lament the passing of endemic races.

[wollastoni]

Agree with Peter
+ this new arion population will evolve separately from the Swedish one, and if it survives to England environment destruction, it will become a differentiated ssp in the following decades/centuries.
Would be interesting to see if its patterns get closer from the patterns of the extincted population.

So I see plenty of reasons of studying/collecting this new arion population but of course with official permits as it is a protected species.

Collecting it without permits in a nature reserve is a crime and a provocation.

[wollastoni]

I see your point.
But arion is a splendid species and I understand why British want to live with them, instead of looking at them as a guilty lack.

+ I find scientifically interesting to see if we can "reintroduce" extinct populations of butterfly species on the long run.

Imagine all low altitude Parnassius disappear because of global warming. In 100 year, we may have found a way to produce energy without CO2 ... Czech entomologists may then want to reintroduce apollo there. Why ? For the pleasure, to be forgiven, and so on...

Anyway, at the rate of extinction of wildlife in Europe, reintroduction will be a more and more important topic.

[timmsyrj]

The large blue was an unfortunate loss due to habitat changes, mainly grazing ( rabbits died out in huge numbers due to myxomatosis ) and changes in farming, also scrub encroachment, not their fault so I see no problem re introducing them as we did with the large copper with s.sp rutilus in the fens.
All European countries where urged to re introduce long lost species as part of the E.U council agreement, which includes all animals, I would rather have these Swedish large blues in the Cotswolds and not the wolves and bears that were here at one time. We do have wild boar again in the Forest of Dean, the Great Busterd breeds on Salisbury plain.

How long does it take for a Swedish large blue race to become British? With immigrants it's not even one generation!!

I can't understand though how a none native species can be protected, fine if it's on a nature reserve but if it colonises adjacent common land etc it should be legal to collect.

Rich

[nomad]

This is a very interesting topic, and I can see both sides of the argument, I think if arion can survive on its own without constant money and help, unlike the Dutch lycaena dispar batavus at Woodwalton Fen then it will be a good thing. However, with the latter they just gave up and it disappeared, the habitat was to small for it to survive on its own.

In the way, that is a valid point, should not all that considerable amount of money be better spent of trying to preserve those species that are endangered in Britain, and we have plenty of those. Do you know that three larger moths, noctuid species, two of them endemic subspecies, have become extinct in the UK in the last ten years. What was disturbing is that two of them were quite widespread species. Why did they become extinct, I believe because of the widespread use of chemical sprays by farmers and others. Did anybody take much notice, no, they just slipped away.

The Large Blue is a flagship species, it is modern conservation par excellence, it is the UK Giant Panda, it brings in the crowds, I love seeing this butterfly, do I enjoy seeing this in UK natures reserves, no !! It is not really a peaceful day in the countryside, people swarm in, all eager to take away an image, if that is their kind of enjoyment, all well and good, but it can never be mind, I would much rather be up a Swiss mountain looking for the alpine version, where in some high valleys you are alone with nature.

You would never be able to collect Large Blues in the UK. arion is protected in many countries, probably also in Sweden. 

[Deleted]

To be honest the reintroduction of arion was nothing but an ego trip for a handfull of self righteous, self styled, self proclaimed conservation "guru's" who belong to the back slapping, self congratulating British butterfly conservation society and is nothing more than a trinket, our native large blue is gone, and it's not coming back, and if the powers that be think it can be replaced by an entomological Jurrasic Park then fine if it keeps them happy, the mindset of these conservation societies is what we say is right as we own everything and you must do what we say and think what we tell you to think, they post lies galore in order to further their cause which is to put a stop to this "barbaric and Victorian pass time" that we call a hobby and brainwash their followers like lobotomised sheep who don't have one origional thought of their own.

Let's get it into perspective here, I've read the article and some of the comments are typical of the loony politically correct banshee's that seem to run everything at the moment. The man was stupid yes, but he caught 2 butterflies, yes 2, and in the grand scheme of things with all that's going on in the world right now it hardly makes him Herr Hitler, but the loony tree huggers want him crucified, not only that they also want you and I crucified too, and I have tasted their bitter venom and made to feel like a serial killer, for this, the most gentle hobby on planet earth with some of the most gentle people I have ever met, you couldn't make it up.

[Deleted]

And I might add that this alien is NOT identical to our extinct native arion, how can it be

[timmsyrj]

Ah yes, thank you Peter, s.sp batavus not rutilus, can never understand why that was so difficult to keep going, 20 years ago I had some larvae from Leicester entomology fair and kept them going for 3-4 years, every winter I would lose probably 90% of hibernating larvae, possibly because the winters weren't severe enough for them to stop in hibernation, possibly foodplant as I reared them on common dock, eventually I gave up breeding due to lack of spare time.
Must try them again, I have a dozen young great water dock plants, once established I'll try and locate a supply of larvae.

Rich

I agree the money could be better used in protecting what we still have rather than what's gone, they've never bothered with the large tortoiseshell , mazarine blue etc.

[wollastoni]

Jan 13, 2017 13:57:14 GMT @dp1965 said:

the loony tree huggers want him crucified, not only that they also want you and I crucified too

Unfortunately true. I have been largely insulted on their forum for trying to explain why entomology/collecting is important.
Some of them would burn the BMNH if they could.

This said, and knowing this difficult UK context, it's even more stupid to collect a protected species in a nature reserve.

[wollastoni]

That's why entomologists must unite in powerful associations lead by entomologists.
If BC or UKB have become anti-science, then a new association should be created in the UK.

In France, the ALF works perfectly with local authorities and people with net are well seen. I have never had any issue on the field.