|
Post by cabintom on May 3, 2016 10:10:11 GMT
Basically I'm looking for your opinions regarding the two middle specimens in the image below: The middle top specimen is quite a good match for nominate subspecies, while the middle bottom specimen is quite similar to the top right lyaeus specimen. P. nireus lyaeus has been recorded along the shores of Lake Albert by Robert Ducarme, and Rethy is near the lake though at the top of the Albertine Rift escarpment. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 3, 2016 10:51:46 GMT
I suspect the two being separate species. A study of this group (all group including all the green barred species) is in need for dozens years but nobody seems to be really interested for making it. I am sure that barcode will be of help in this case.
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on May 3, 2016 14:08:03 GMT
Is the shape of the claspers the same in both specimens? Also, are there any apparent differences on the underside?
Thierry,
I agree with you that this group needs much further study. There is a plan in the pipeline to 'do' all of the African Papilio species, as there are many other issues beyond the nireus group such as where do antimachus and zalmoxis belong as well as problems in several other species groups.
Right now we are starting a study on Graphium and the other Leptocircini which should clarify relationships between African species of that genus, and between the African and Asian species.
Adam.
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 3, 2016 14:54:04 GMT
thanks Adam
curious to see the results I am sure that nireus s. s. will be splitted in some species like "bromius / chraposkoides" will be too. Curious also to see where chitondensis will be ? constantinus and mweruana also are quite different and are probably two different species ! There are many problems that remain for many years, even in the studied Graphium genus (in Africa at least) including the "ucalegon group", etc. the genus concept (very large) applied to African Papilio is not easy to understand? Hope that barcode will help to clarify it.
|
|
|
Post by mcheki on May 3, 2016 16:00:18 GMT
I am sure that nireus s. s. will be splitted in some species like "bromius / chraposkoides" will be too. Curious also to see where chitondensis will be ? constantinus and mweruana also are quite different and are probably two different species ! That should also pull in wilsoni from South Sudan and pseudonireus which also complicate the picture.
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 3, 2016 16:06:42 GMT
even inside a subspecies like ssp lyaeus, it is not clear !
|
|
|
Post by cabintom on May 3, 2016 18:08:51 GMT
Is the shape of the claspers the same in both specimens? Also, are there any apparent differences on the underside? I only have a few specimens of lyaeus to look at so nothing near conclusive. Without doing a very careful examination, the claspers look the same between both subspecies. And here's the undersides of the bottom left and top right specimens from my initial figure: The nireus nireus specimen is typical for what I find in the forest. On the other hand, I only have 3 male nireus lyaeus from Uganda, but this specimen is typical of that small group. And then here's the undersides for the 2 specimens from Rethy: As you can see they're quite similar, and somewhat in between the two other specimens in terms of appearance.
|
|
|
Post by nomad on May 3, 2016 20:04:34 GMT
Why is a different species suspected they all look similar to me.
|
|
|
Post by deliasfanatic on May 3, 2016 20:38:20 GMT
I'd guess that the claspers would look the same between nireus/lyaeus, even if they prove to be separate species, since they're undoubtedly close relatives. P. sosia is the "look-alike" taxon in which claspers are very different (rounded rather than tapering to a point).
P. n. lyaeus varies wildly as one progresses through Uganda; the band sometimes shrinks drastically. When I have a little time I'll put up a few photos of variations.
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 3, 2016 20:49:58 GMT
Why is a different species suspected they all look similar to me. after collecting them in long series and various localities, and coupled with some experience, you suspect mixed species when you never got a clear answer to classify them with confidence.
|
|
|
Post by cabintom on May 3, 2016 20:59:58 GMT
Why is a different species suspected they all look similar to me. That's the problem with this group... the only one I can ID on the wing without trouble is P. charopus.
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 4, 2016 5:53:49 GMT
Why is a different species suspected they all look similar to me. That's the problem with this group... the only one I can ID on the wing without trouble is P. charopus. even if tails are broken
did you got any leucotaenia ?
|
|
|
Post by cabintom on May 4, 2016 7:18:53 GMT
Well... maybe, the verso silver markings are somewhat distinctive. So, while mud-puddling, yes. In flight, without tails, probably not! did you got any leucotaenia ? No, I haven't seen any. It's a high altitude species right?
|
|
|
Post by africaone on May 4, 2016 7:44:41 GMT
yes high altitude ... I heared that it has been caught in NW Uganda, if it is true why not in your country in altitude forest (it seems there some remaining in the east near Lac Albert, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by cabintom on May 4, 2016 11:32:32 GMT
yes high altitude ... I heared that it has been caught in NW Uganda, if it is true why not in your country in altitude forest (it seems there some remaining in the east near Lac Albert, etc.). I'll need to ask J.P. Lequeux if he's heard about captures in NW Uganda. If anyone knows for sure that the species has been found there, it will be him. As for high altitude forest near Lac Albert... most of what is left was planted by Belgians back in the day (at least that's what I've heard), so it's all small woods of Eucalyptus and Cypress... I have yet to hear about any true high altitude and intact natural forest in the area. There is the Djugu forest, which I'm excited to start exploring in the near future, but that's about 1600/1700m altitude, so not really high altitude.
|
|