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Post by wollastoni on Oct 4, 2015 17:32:40 GMT
Here are the rare Delias that I have found in Juvisy
Among them 2 extremely rare Delias hemianops (top left specimens), and maybe my first 2 Delias hiemalis if they are genuine. Also one Delias frater and one Delias nieuwenhuisi
They are currently in the freezer.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 4, 2015 19:50:06 GMT
"and maybe my first 2 Delias hiemalis if they are genuine"
Can you explain this for non-Delias bods like me, please?
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 4, 2015 20:13:22 GMT
Sure, I can.
Delias hiemalis has been described in 1955 by Roepke from Ilaga area : 
But Delias hiemalis hiemalis is very close to another Delias species : Delias autumnalis which was also described by Roepke in 1955 from the Baliem Valley. 
Many of the offered "hiemalis" on the market are worn males / misidentified Delias autumnalis autumnalis.
But the 2 ones in my Juvisy box do look like genuine specimens and the source (B. Turlin) is knowledgeable and his data are most of the time excellent as he was in close relation with Henk van Mastrigt.
Pictures copyright : Delias of the World www.delias-butterflies.com
Then another debate is : "is hiemalis a ssp of autumnalis". Many discussions among specialists about this.
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Post by nomad on Oct 5, 2015 5:07:10 GMT
I have compared the D. hiemalis with the autumnalis in my collection and there are differences. It is a good bet they are genuine if they came to Bernard Turlin by way of the late Henk Mastrigt. Perhaps hiemalis are indeed just local forms of autumnalis?
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Post by deliasfanatic on Oct 5, 2015 5:21:30 GMT
I agree. One characteristic of genuine hiemalis is that the dark HW patch remains dark on the veins; in autumnalis, these are yellow. Nominate autumnalis has them very noticeably yellow; in autumnalis hiemalis, much more similar to hiemalis in appearance, they are much less noticeable but there is always a slight amount present. The red HW basal patch is somewhat diagnostic; if deep maroon-red, it's hiemalis. If true red, it's probably autumnalis, but there is also a rare form of hiemalis in which it's red rather than maroon-red.
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 5, 2015 6:51:28 GMT
and last but not least a nice box of Delias, I was beaten to the two real Papuan rarities in this box, by my friend the Delias expert.   But you did leave 1 Delias hiemalis behind, top left and only 8 euro.. Rich |
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Post by nomad on Oct 5, 2015 9:03:15 GMT
Indeed I did Rich, a oversight on my part but my box was full.  |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 5, 2015 9:43:05 GMT
And if I remember well, you did buy some hiemalis following my advice.
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 5, 2015 9:43:41 GMT
You need a bigger box, so does Olivier, I'd have to get papered Stichophthalma with that little specimen box, though with Delias I guess a small box stops you over spending, looking at the prices though no wonder Olivier couldn't afford to get to the AES show, nice specimens.
Looking at the drawer of Delias above, Delias arabuana and Delias awongkor (I think I've read the labels correctly) look almost identical aside from the different colour on the hindwing next to the abdomen, red in arabuana and yellow in awongkor, is this the only difference? If so is it enough to result in two separate species and not sub.species or form.loc, are Delias taking over from apollo's, not splitting hairs just a genuine interest in this fascinating species, I can certainly see the fascination they are fabulous specimens, makes me wonder why, when most species are colourful on the recto side and more camouflaged on the verso these little things seem to want to show off and stand out when at rest.
Rich
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 5, 2015 10:23:13 GMT
Indeed the arabuana/awongkor complex is difficult and you need to add Delias flavistriga in this mess ! This is how to separate them : Delias awongkor : small round yellow patch 
Delias flavistriga : small round red patch  Delias arabuana : long red patch  I do think awongkor is a local form of flavistriga. arabuana seems to be a more stable species. I don't remember if Henk van Mastrigt had revised this complex recently. Henk in the last decade has lumped a lot of Delias species. |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 5, 2015 10:25:07 GMT
The rarer Delias mesoblema should be taken into account to :  |
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Post by nomad on Oct 5, 2015 14:26:05 GMT
You need a bigger box, so does Olivier, I'd have to get papered Stichophthalma with that little specimen box, though with Delias I guess a small box stops you over spending, looking at the prices though no wonder Olivier couldn't afford to get to the AES show, nice specimens. Looking at the drawer of Delias above, Delias arabuana and Delias awongkor (I think I've read the labels correctly) look almost identicle aside from the different colour on the hindwing next to the abdomen, red in arabuana and yellow in awongkor, is this the only difference? If so is it enough to result in two separate species and not sub.species or form.loc, are Delias taking over from apollo's, not splitting hairs just a genuine interest in this fascinating species, I can certainly see the fascination they are fabulous specimens, makes me wonder why, when most species are colourful on the recto side and more camouflaged on the verso these little things seem to want to show off and stand out when at rest. Rich Yes, Olivier always take that tiny box, I guess he is not expecting to find much in the way of Delias to add to his collection. Mine is bigger and double sided. You have an excellent point, why are most butterflies drab on the underside for camouflage and Delias are brightly coloured??. |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 5, 2015 14:41:24 GMT
"why are most butterflies drab on the underside for camouflage and Delias are brightly coloured??. "
--> some papers say Delias are toxic species. That would explain their bright colour.
This has to be confirmed though because in Papua, I have caught a high rate of A2 specimens beaten by birds.
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 5, 2015 19:04:13 GMT
Indeed I did Rich, a oversight on my part but my box was full. Ahhh' when the box is full and the pockets is empty it's a happy contented man that grins.... |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 5, 2015 19:05:51 GMT
Given that their larvae are also brightly coloured and they mostly feed on parasitic plants in family Loranthaceae and close relatives they probably are distasteful.
However, birds and other predators have to learn individually which insects they should avoid and which they can eat, so there is always a certain percentage of attacks on distasteful species. The very fact that Olivier found a large number of A2 specimens that had been attacked by birds actually suggests that once the birds pecked at them they immediately learnt that they are distasteful, otherwise they would have been eaten and not seen by Olivier.
Delias hyparete has been flying here for the past couple of weeks, and always sits with wings closed showing off its brightly coloured underside.
Adam.
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