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Post by wollastoni on Apr 25, 2015 16:43:04 GMT
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 25, 2015 16:56:35 GMT
I would be suspicious that the permit is a fake, as far as I know IFTA is not operational. It is also strange that the eBay seller calls it "Ornithoptera. Straatmana (Rumbucher, 1973)" rather than its species name. If it is legal why be devious?
Also bear in mind that even if there is a valid export permit for the specimen that doesn't actually mean the importing country will issue an import permit - it is appendix 1 not 2, and it is at the importing authority's discretion whether or not they will issue a permit.
Adam.
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Post by africaone on Apr 25, 2015 18:16:44 GMT
Looks like a real permit to me. Same than other permits from PNG that I have. And IFTA is an official association. I am really surprised as appendix 1 doesn 't allow to export item. it is the difference with appendix 2. may be i am wrong ?? |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 25, 2015 18:47:01 GMT
Is IFTA still issuing permits for CITES 2 species?
It would not be so difficult to doctor (photoshop etc) a real permit issued back when IFTA was trading, and change the species name and year.
It just seems suspicious to me.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 25, 2015 18:55:30 GMT
By the way, Catherine Aisi was working for IFTA 10 years ago, as I got e-mails from her then.
Note also that the permit is out of date - it is valid for 6 months from 22 Feb 2014 - and anyway, to send the specimen from Russia the seller will have to obtain a Russian CITES 1 export permit. The permit he shows cannot be used to apply for an import permit to the buyer's country.
Adam.
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 25, 2015 19:05:08 GMT
Bravo Adam --- wow, are you good ! !
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Post by wollastoni on Apr 25, 2015 19:50:06 GMT
The permit seems to be a real one to me
I am sure that it is the original permit that the ebay seller received together with the specimen.
If it was a fake permit, then he would have put a valid date...
Then Adam is right, it is not because the specimen "legally" arrived in a country A that it could be "legally" resell and exported to a country B.
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Post by timmsyrj on Apr 25, 2015 19:54:39 GMT
It's also an export permit from Papua, the seller would have needed an import permit from the country it came into, Russia, without this permit, stamped by their customs the specimen is still illegal and he will not be able to supply a re export permit without this import permit number and if he can't supply a re export permit the buyer can't get the required import permit, hope your all not as confused reading this as I was writing it.
I dealt with ornithoptera from IFTA for a while and had several very good dealings with them, I kept quite a few for my own private collection, also note that the import permits have 2 codes on them, off the top of my head I think one was "T" for trade and the other I can't recall without checking up but was for private collection, if it doesn't have the "T" on it it can't be traded legally, I have both on my permits as the first order was for my collection, subsequent orders were for trade at shows, some I kept, also those with the "T" I had to pay import duty on and those without I didn't.
I have not heard that they are still trading, it would be great if they were from the point of view of the insects themselves but at the moment my collection is becoming more of an investment, I noticed a pair of bornemanni sold on eBay recently for about 300 euro, I had 20 pairs at $20 a pair, I still have around 12 pairs, also about 10 pairs of demophanes and 7 admiralitatus, if these all go the way of miokensis I'll be retiring early.
Rich
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Post by timmsyrj on Apr 25, 2015 19:57:23 GMT
Sorry if I've repeated what Adam said a little in my above reply.
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Post by timmsyrj on Apr 25, 2015 20:16:39 GMT
I wonder if this is not one of IFTA's own display specimens sold off after they closed, obviously they would have had to have a special permit but they did have quite a large display at their office in bulolo, and they did breed them for a while back in the late seventies early eighties I believe.
Chris Farrell went there many years ago and bought some poseidon etc back with him, he told me he'd seen alexandrae in a display case with other ornithoptera.
Rich
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 25, 2015 22:55:18 GMT
Man, someone is sure gonna get taken to the cleaners if they are foolish enough to fall for this one....
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Post by Paul K on Apr 25, 2015 23:51:06 GMT
This is not CITES permit of any kind.
It looks like application for CITES permit but not the actual permit .
I have purchesed from IFTA before and the permits look different .
As far as I know IFTA is not operating anymore due to complications in regards of export permits in PNG
Paul
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 26, 2015 13:58:55 GMT
I purchased from IFTA about 10 years ago, but only non-CITES species that did not need permits, so I actually don't know what a real export permit looks like. It does look rather as if it is an application form, rather than the actual permit, especially as it says "signature of applicant" at the bottom right.
Adam.
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Post by nomad on Apr 26, 2015 18:55:27 GMT
That's a really nice A1 fresh specimen of O. straatmana that someone is going to purchase. I believe that this species is now found in tiny fragments of rainforest amid oil plantations. O. straatmana is very close to the Cities One O. alexandrae. It seems the birdwing guru Ray Straatman discovered the birdwing named in his honour in the depths of the New Guinea rainforest in the 1960s. O. alexandrae was of course discovered by A.S. Meek after quite an adventure in 1907!  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 26, 2015 20:19:05 GMT
Straatmana Deslisle (2007) (not Rumbucher, 1973) is a replacement name for the junior homonym Zeunera Deslisle (2001) which was described as a genus group name in Ornithoptera to separate alexandrae from other species, not as a species name.
Adam.
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