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Post by luehdorfia on Dec 14, 2016 9:06:26 GMT
I was just looking at that book in our public library, next time when I pass by, I will check if they have the original description cited in the bibliography so that I can try to find it.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 14, 2016 15:06:35 GMT
It will be interesting to see which publication is cited in the book. As you can see from my post on page one of the thread, there are several possibilities, and two supposed authors, although the book cites Reutti so he is the more likely author, but did he first describe it in 1853 or 1898 as stated by Lamas?
Adam.
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Post by stevedrews on May 15, 2017 22:00:18 GMT
A beautfiul story Peter. Well written. The question now is "Has anyone caught these varieties recently from the wild?" It would be interesting to know if this genetic form is still around or not. Thank you. I am not aware, of any recent melanic specimens of Papilio machaon britannicus being seen or caught in the wild. It is interesting that in this country, all have been bred or caught from Norfolk Broads, which is now the Swallowtails last British refuge. Newman seems to have proved that the true Black melanic strain was genetic. It is quite possible the the wild melanic strain found in the British Swallowtail has weakened and has sadly died out. Hi there, in a recent article in the local (Norfolk) Butterfly Conservation journal about the abbr Niger Swallowtail, the last known sighting was in 1985 at Martham Norfolk by two members. As said with current numbers so low we may have seen the last of this special butterfly unfortunately Steve in sunny Wroxham/Hoveton |
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Post by nomad on May 16, 2017 7:06:15 GMT
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Post by mothylator on Nov 25, 2018 14:53:16 GMT
Papilio machaon ab obscura. Bred at Chelmsford, larvae from the Norfolk Broads, L.W Newman. 24.4. 1930. H.C Ferrier. Ex H.J. Turner collection. EX P. Smart collection. As the large Smart collection was sold Auction, I am not sure who has this specimen today. Any ideas. Painting by A.D.A Russwurm. I know where there is a privately owned female ab. niger specimen with that provenance and date on the label. I saw it only a couple of weeks ago. I suspect that H.C Ferrier had both a male and a female dark forms. The male was an obscura painted by Russwurm, and there exists a female ab. niger with perfect provenance and sale from Robert Goodden. It's current provenance goes: Norfolk Broads ex-larvae by LW Newman bred 24/4/1930 H.C. Ferrier, Chelmsford; ex HJ Turner; [ex Paul Smart coll.?]; ex Robert Gooden; ex Keith Zabell collection (Bought off Robert Gooden, Worldwide Butterflies, 19th June 1990 for £1000). The Zabell collection is now sold. I have contacted the current private owner to see if he is prepared to post any pics, and/or tell the story of its latest ownership migration, and/or identify himself. Edit note: After making some further enquiries, I'm now sure it definitely came from the Smart collection and was bought by Robert Goodden, and then sold to Keith Zabell. btw, It looks very like the lowest Frohawk picture on Plate 46, page 189, although the hindwing eye is slightly more blue. No red at all. The Frohawk pic is defo a different specimen though, & with different provenance. |
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Post by nomad on Nov 25, 2018 15:37:11 GMT
That's very interesting. I have seen the drawer in the BMNH but never seen a genuine one in a private collection. If your friend would allow us to see a picture of his specimen that would be very nice indeed, also any further information would be welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 19:06:18 GMT
Actually I was looking at part of a private collection of British butterflies that a friend had brought to the Derby university exhibition a couple of weeks ago and it contained a Newman melanic Britannicus, lovely specimen too.
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Post by mothylator on Nov 26, 2018 1:33:00 GMT
1. J.P Lloyd wild caught specimen (1921) ex Rothschild Coll. 1821 - according to Frohawk(1938), p187. |
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Post by nomad on Nov 26, 2018 8:00:36 GMT
Typo I believe. J. P. Lloyd of 60 Ringwood Road, Eastbourne was active as a collector in the 1920/30s. No melanics recorded that early in the 19th century.
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Post by mothylator on Nov 27, 2018 16:39:10 GMT
Typo I believe. J. P. Lloyd of 60 Ringwood Road, Eastbourne was active as a collector in the 1920/30s. No melanics recorded that early in the 19th century. Thanks for that info. I should've checked before remotely suggesting that you had made a typo!! Apols. Unitedman and I are both referring to the same ad. niger melanic specimen. |
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Post by nomad on Dec 1, 2018 9:34:37 GMT
Is your friend going to allow us to see an image of his specimen?
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Post by mothylator on Apr 8, 2019 0:14:30 GMT
Is your friend going to allow us to see an image of his specimen? Hi all, I spoke today to the current owner of said female ab. niger specimen. Norfolk Broads ex-larvae by LW Newman bred 24/4/1930 H.C. Ferrier, Chelmsford; ex HJ Turner collection; ex Paul Smart collection. ex Robert Gooden. (Bought by Keith Zabell from Robert Goodden, Worldwide Butterflies, 19th June 1990 for £1000). ex The Late Keith Zabell's collection. (Bought by Paul Martin from the Zabell Collection for an undisclosed sum. He is not interested in selling it). Here's Paul Martin's photograph of it. I should point out that the secondary labelling addition, stating: "...FIGURED (INCORRECTLY AS obscura) IN RUSSWURM'S AB'S", is incorrect. Russwurm's book figured the male ab. obscura, whereas this is the female ab. niger. I believe there was a pair, both acquired by Paul Smart ex-coll. H.J.Turner. (I don't know if the label wording is in Paul Smart's or Robert Gooddens's handwriting or someone else's)  |
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Post by luehdorfia on Apr 8, 2019 4:57:58 GMT
mothylator that is just simply stunning! Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Also very interesting shape of the wings, I can really understand that your friend is not interested in selling it, I wouldn’t be either. Thanks a lot for sharing this! Its incredible!
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Post by nomad on Apr 8, 2019 6:34:17 GMT
What a stunning example of a very valuable historical specimen. Its such a pleasure to view such a treasure and thank you for you and your friend for letting us see it on the forum. Up to now, the only ones I have seen in private collection are those inky fakes.
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Post by mothylator on Apr 19, 2019 13:23:38 GMT
Having futher researched this, I can only add that I believe this to be the only genuine P. machaon britannicus ab.niger remaining in private ownership, all the previously known extant examples being now in museums.
I recently saw a pair of ink-stained fakes, but having seen the real thing, they were so obviously not authentic, but they made an impact nevertheless.
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