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Post by andonj on May 28, 2023 12:34:49 GMT
Hello!! So I need some help to identify the butterfly in the following picture (it's a form of a screenshot from a film where the photograph of this specific butterfly was presented). I have to state the species but I wanted to be certain so I did some research. I'm stuck though, since I'm not quite able to spot the differences between p. bianor, p. dehaanii, p. maackii (I hope I'm at least getting somewhere). Anyway, S.O.S! Thank you in advance!
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 28, 2023 14:24:39 GMT
I suspect there is more than one species in this composite photo. The lighting is rather strange, and may affect the appearance - possibly there is a high UV content in the light, and the movement doesn't help.
The specimen in the middle with wings open is almost certainly Papilio maackii, as is the one top left, but the dark specimen bottom left seems to be either P. bianor or P. dehaanii. At least some of the smaller ones with underside showing (further away, rather than actually smaller) look like P. dehaanii from the blurry forewing bands.
Can you move the frames on (or back) to see a frame with the whole of the forewing underside of the specimen on the right? It is important to see whether the pale band bends towards the costa (leading edge) or goes up to the apex.
Adam.
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Post by andonj on May 29, 2023 17:23:54 GMT
I see. I'm sorry but that's the clearest shot I can get. You certainly helped me, thank you! So, the P. maackii differs from the other species in their forewings patterns? Is there a simple specific way to distinguish them, based on their patterns, or is it something an amateur as myself should study more to comprehend? Furthermore, in some articles I've come across some combined names, such as "Papilio bianor dehaanii" in the picture below and I got a bit confused about the entity of the species. Thank you again for taking notice of my questions! Joan
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 29, 2023 18:37:42 GMT
I suspect that all of the butterflies in the first photo you posted come from Japan, but it is not possible to be certain. Here is a photo showing the difference in the forewing pattern between Papilio dehaanii and P. maackii from Japan. The hindwing band in P. maackii is absent in some populations, but the forewing band always goes to the apex whereas in P. dehaanii and bianor it bends to the costa above the forewing cell. It is not as easy to define obvious characters which distinguish P. dehaanii and P. maackii from the upperside, because there is a considerable amount of individual and seasonal variation, as well as between the sexes, although many people will know that a specimen belongs to one or the other species at a glance. Papilio dehaanii belongs to the bianor complex, and until quite recently was considered as a subspecies of P. bianor. Various studies, both morphological and molecular, have shown that they are separate species, but it is not easy to distinguish them on appearance alone. These two species are basically allopatric (found in different places) but there is some overlap in NE China (Shandong Province). The specimen in your photo is a female, with a pale forewing band mirroring that on the underside. However not all females of P. dehaanii look like this. Adam. PS. The name dehaanii has -ii at the end, and a single -i is an incorrect spelling of the name (not your fault).
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Post by alandmor on May 30, 2023 15:37:03 GMT
Instead of a still capture, can you post a brief video of the butterfly sequence in question or the name of the movie? The actual video might show things a single still capture can not. Just a thought.
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Post by andonj on Jun 8, 2023 18:23:56 GMT
Thank you so much! I apologise for the late reply, I hadn't really had the time to focus on my studies recently. To alandmor, I'm sorry, I wish I could, but the butterflies in the film are actually from a photograph, shown in a scene, and I took the cleanest snap I could from there. (I'm not sure if tagging/mentioning members works here.) Adam Cotton, sir, thank you for making a note about the name as well, I should be careful, too. I will make sure to pay attention to the forewing band, then. I was also wondering about some old articles - apparently, I got confused because more than once P. dehaanii was reffered to as "P. bianor dehaanii" (I guess those examples were some extracts from older books I read online). What's more, that picture you attached, I hope you don't mind, I downloaded it. Is it of samples from your collection, I presume that is your name on the tags? Could you, please, give consent to the use as a reference? I cannot find many decent shots of the ventral view - I would like to draw those samples as ink sketches, that is, if you allow. Of course, I would have to work on my terminology knowledge, too. All in all, your explanation is already of great help. Do you, perhaps, mind giving me advice on any books or articles focusing on those species, featuring visual materials? I'm looking forward to your answer. Joan Andon
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 8, 2023 20:07:58 GMT
Joan,
Yes these specimens are in my collection. I have no objection to you downloading the photo, using it in anything you do, and making sketches of the specimens. I would appreciate being acknowledged for assistance if possible, but am not worried. If you need photos of more specimens I can provide them if you let me know what you are looking for.
Probably the best book with underside photos (half specimens) is Fujioka, T., Tsukiyama, H. & Chiba, H. (1997). Japanese Butterflies and Their Relatives in the World. Vol. 1. Shuppan Geijutsu Sha, Tokyo, 302 + 197 pp., 162 pls. [in Japanese with English summary] This is a rather specialised book, and probably not available in the 'local library'. It covers many other species but has a number of plates showing both upperside and underside of many specimens of bianor, dehaanii and maackii. It is worth noting that at that time P. bianor and dehaanii were still treated as the same species.
Apart from molecular studies which showed that they are separate species, I have bred both true bianor and dehaanii and I made hybrids between them which were sterile. This confirms that they are different species.
Adam.
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Post by andonj on Jun 11, 2023 14:37:16 GMT
A. Cotton,
Good day! I just downloaded a pdf file of the summary of "Japanese butterflies and their relatives in the world I Hesperiidae/Papilionidae". It's an abstract of 14 pages in total but the visuals are quite clear, fortunately. I'll be delving into the scripts today and hopefully finish a few more sketches.
As for the photo you send me, I'm grateful you're letting me use it. Most likely, my works won't participate in any grand exhibition, if any at all, but I'll most definitely write your name in with special thanks for the research assistance. If you don't mind my further request, would you try to pick a couple of individuals of the species P. dehaanii, P. bianor and/or P. maackii, who you think are more distinguishable? I would like to know - can a collector have their favourites?
I cannot fail to mention my impression of the work you wrote of - crossbreeding and so. Simply astounding!
Thank you again for your assistance, Joan Andon
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 14, 2023 12:22:33 GMT
Joan,
Thank you for your comments. I am not sure what you mean about picking some individuals. Do you want me to post photos of some sample specimens?
Personally I don't really have favourite specimens, they are all interesting for study. I suppose that some collectors must have personal favourites.
Adam.
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