karan
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Country: Spain
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Post by karan on Apr 5, 2020 20:16:23 GMT
Degreasing and de-crystallizing naphthalene in a Mecynorrhina Ugandensis.
This specimen of Mecynorrhina Ugandensis was oiled and later, naphthalene crystallized on the remaining, as can be seen in the photo. The greasing came after the magnificent idea that I had to clean the insect by immersing it in hot water that, as it now dissolves the internal grease and allows them to come out to the surface of the insect, leaving the metallic tone of the Mecynorrhinas completely off. I have proceeded to immerse the specimen in a beetle degreaser (from entomoalex) for approximately half an hour, it can be seen that the crystals have dissolved and the color has recovered.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 6, 2020 12:20:13 GMT
In a thread on Insectnet I discussed my experiments to clean and degrease Dynastes.
In short, what I found is that a isopropyl alcohol bath is far more effective than acetone or other chemicals. For example, a large Hercules that had developed dark elytra was soaked in acetone six times, 24 hours each time. Every time the specimen was removed from the acetone bath it looked better, but within days the body fat would weep from the pin hole and discolor the elytra. When immersed in alcohol suddenly the solution wash awash with brown fats, it could be observed flowing out from the specimen as if drawn out. 24 hours later the specimen was clean, and now probably a year later the problem has not returned.
Chuck
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bandrow
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Post by bandrow on Apr 7, 2020 14:47:15 GMT
Greetings,
Exoticimports - this is really interesting - I never tried using isopropyl alcohol for degreasing, but I have had the same experience as you with acetone, and to a lesser degree with ethyl acetate.
I've often used ethyl acetate sparingly to degrease the surfaces of beetles with success, especially Cerambycidae like Batocera that have had the coloration grease over. I take a very soft tissue, dip it in ethyl acetate and dab it on the affected area - it almost always causes the coloration to pop back out. Care must be taken not to wipe too hard or one can rub off the pubescence.
However, I recently had a greasy 'bycid from Guatemala that I was cleaning in preparation to describe as a new species. It has white pubescence on the body, and had globs of hardened fat all over it, so I soaked it in ethyl acetate overnight. It cleared, and turned the liquid yellow, so I repeated it in a fresh wash, but had to repeat this four times for a beetle 30mm long! It still has some grease appearing.
I'm no chemist, but I wonder if acetone and ethyl acetate are strong enough solvents that they liquify all the lipids in the specimen, and then they do not re-solidify, causing a persistent "oozing" of fats? Maybe alcohol dissolves fat initially, but then "fixes" it somehow, stopping the greasing?
I'll definitely give the isopropyl a try the next time I have a big beetle greasing up on me...
Cheers! Bandrow
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jhyatt
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Post by jhyatt on Apr 7, 2020 17:27:03 GMT
I'm not a beetle guy, but I am a card-carrying Ph.D. organic chemist. It really surprises me that isopropanol seems superior for degreasing specimens. "Grease" typically refers to fats and waxes, a.k.a. lipids. Fats are fatty acid triesters of glycerol, and waxes are fatty alcohol esters of fatty acids. Both classes of compounds are mostly hydrocarbon, and most rapidly dissolve in a hydrocarbon solvent(hexane, heptane, etc)or a nonpolar halocarbon solvent(carbon tetrachloride, trichloroethylene, etc).
Solvents like ketones (e.g. acetone) and ethyl acetate, and even more so, alcohols (isopropanol) are generally not really good solvents for hydrocarbons. I wonder if the "grease" composition of your beetles is something other than typical lipid in nature? Might it have unusually short-chain fatty acids in its makeup? That might account for better solubility in polar solvents.
I always use hexane to degrease lepidoptera; next time I have something to degrease, I'll try some isopropanol and see what happens!
Cheers, jh
Regards, jh
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Post by larrycurlymoe on Apr 7, 2020 19:53:12 GMT
I was also surprised to hear that isopropyl alcohol was used to degrease beetles, so I tried it myself. I soaked a female Dynastes tityus and an eyed click beetle (Alaus oculatus) for about 12 hours. To my surprise, it worked on both beetles. I hope they'll remain degreased.
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karan
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Posts: 60
Country: Spain
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Post by karan on Apr 7, 2020 20:09:37 GMT
Thank you so much for the information Chuck, I didn't know you had written about it on insect net, I already read you a year ago here collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2891/question-colorsHopefully all cases will be solved in the same way with isopropyl, I tell about my tests for whoever is worth the information. Tierra de Sommieres This powder is a powerful degreaser for butterflies as you can see in a post on this forum that I can't find. You cover the butterfly with the dust and it absorbs all the grease without spoiling the specimen, someone commented that it also worked for dynastes, I don't know if it was you, according to my tests it doesn't work in Mecynorhinas, or lucanidos. One week with the coleopteran in the powder and there are no changes. isopropyl alcohol As I read to you yesterday I put this ALLOTOPUS ROSENBERGI (its original color is gold) deeply oiled in isopropyl and it has remained 24 hours, as you can see in the photos there have been no changes and the isopropyl remains transparent.
beetle degreaser from entomoalex (which I think is an acetone) LUCANIDAE PROSOPOCOILUS BISON CINCTUS I'm sorry I don't have a photo of the greased specimen but the yellow was blackish a total disgrace. I submerged it just 30 minutes as I took it out it was still dark and the color cleared in 10 minutes and the next morning it was new, perfect, from this 1 month ago the fat has not returned. Mecynorrhinas Ugandensis female This red female had a look like the male that I published previously, an hour of immersion, clean and recovery of color 4 months ago, the fat has not returned. Mecynorrhinas Ugandensis Male The male with whom I started the post, after two days the protonum is wonderful and the elytros have recovered the metallic, at the top if you can see that it has darkened something, but I attribute it to having little degreaser and it was not covered by Complete, even so I think that a total immersion will solve it. I think that it is not as simple as that a single product is applicable to all cases, but that it varies according to the age of the specimen, the degree of humidity it has and I think that the species of coleoptero is very determining the structure of its elytra. I have also observed the same thing as you around the pin, a circle of fat is created, which I think I remember reading here because it was because drilling the elytro made it easier for the fat inside to emerge to the surface. Well thank you very much for bothering to write to share your observations Chuck, I will continue testing with both acetone and isopropyl, this time with something more similar to bison. Interesting Post about degreasing butterflies, check jh collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2312/ornithoptera-degreasing-success
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jhyatt
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Post by jhyatt on Apr 7, 2020 21:54:56 GMT
Another note of degreasing with isopropyl alcohol:
Most isopropanol that one could buy at a drugstore or supermarket it only 70% pure, the remainder being water. I wonder if soaking in 70/30 isopropanol/water will relax previously dry specimens? I'll try it on a moth and see what happens. Stay tuned. jh
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 7, 2020 23:47:58 GMT
There are actually two threads on degreasing coleoptera (and others) on Insectnet.com. Both, like this thread, have titles that aren't readily apparent as to the content. May I suggest this thread become the Mother of All Degreasing threads, and be re-named? It would be great to have a single go-to source for this information. The insectnet.com threads are: insectnet.proboards.com/thread/3300/dynastes-hercules-lichyi-black-forminsectnet.proboards.com/thread/3300/dynastes-hercules-lichyi-black-formI'm going to start my response with more information, then go search for photos. I know I'm already going to be disappointed, since at the time I thought "I should take photos through this process" and I was TOO EFFING LAZY to do so. However, I believe I have a few photos that I already don't show the full experiment. To start was a large male specimen of D. (hercules) paschoali. I'll refer to this specimen as "DHP". This was a bred specimen, for what it's worth. When received it was dried. I relaxed it in tupperware with water-wetted paper towel on the bottom, and a splash of rubbing alcohol to inhibit mold. Once relaxed, I set the specimen, with the pin through the body via right elytra. The next day I noted spreading dark striations under the elytra, clearly body fluids. This continued to spread over the course of several days until both elytra were almost black. At this point the specimen was reasonable "set" i.e., dry enough that nothing flexed. Frustrated with the spreading darkness of evil, I soaked the specimen 24 hours, fully submerged in acetone within a brand new paint can, sealed. Upon removal from the acetone, 80% of the dark oil was removed from the elytra/wing area, as evidenced by color "returning." Unfortunately, within two hours the dark staining started to return. Over the course of a month or so I repeated this process at least a half dozen times, always with the same results. Increasingly frustrated, I poured rubbing alcohol into a Chinese made Air-Sealed Food Container (procured on Guadalcanal, previously unused) and placed the DHP specimen right-side up into the alcohol. It was amazing- instantly, roiling clouds of brown literally rushed from the DHP specimen throughout the rubbing alcohol in the container. The specimen remained in the alcohol for about 24 hours. 98% of the fat/ oil staining had disappeared, and has not returned in more than a year. I lit the acetone on fire (outdoors) and discarded the paint can. Second specimen was an all-black Dynastes hercules (henceforth denoted as DHB). Upon reading about a similar specimen on InsectNet.com (see links above) and noting my success with the DHP specimen, I tossed my "rare all black" DHB into the same airtight container, with the same alcohol (not same type, the exact same alcohol) as I had for DHP. Same results. The "all black" DHB was no longer black, and to this day more than a year later it has not discolored/ oiled/ greased. A female lubber grasshopper, fresh caught, also started the fatty oil discoloration and was tossed into the alcohol. The results were mediocre. The airtight container is made by Star Industrial Co. of Hong Kong. It is advertised on the label "Antifungus" and "able to retard the growth of bacteria." The alcohol is made by Assured, and 50% Isopropyl Alcohol. Lot L005284FA. Distributed by Greenbriar International. Purchased in USA. I still have some of the alcohol. In fact, I have the Star Industries container with the brownish alcohol still sitting here. Just in case somebody needs some sort of experiment or specimen. I'll see if I can locate any photos later. Chuck
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Post by mothman27 on Apr 8, 2020 0:20:06 GMT
Another note of degreasing with isopropyl alcohol: Most isopropanol that one could buy at a drugstore or supermarket it only 70% pure, the remainder being water. I wonder if soaking in 70/30 isopropanol/water will relax previously dry specimens? I'll try it on a moth and see what happens. Stay tuned. jh I'm curious to hear how that goes. I have both 99% and 70% alcohol from Amazon.com.
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Post by africaone on Apr 8, 2020 7:57:50 GMT
Thank you so much for the information Chuck, I didn't know you had written about it on insect net, I already read you a year ago here collector-secret.proboards.com/thread/2891/question-colorsHopefully all cases will be solved in the same way with isopropyl, I tell about my tests for whoever is worth the information. Tierra de Sommieres This powder is a powerful degreaser for butterflies as you can see in a post on this forum that I can't find. You cover the butterfly with the dust and it absorbs all the grease without spoiling the specimen, someone commented that it also worked for dynastes, I don't know if it was you, according to my tests it doesn't work in Mecynorhinas, or lucanidos. One week with the coleopteran in the powder and there are no changes. I used terre de sommières for 30 years to degrease butterflies and moths. I let specimens in specimen in a bath of benzene or tetrachlorure or cloth degreaser (time depending of how big is abdomen and quantity of gease) After that I remove the specimen and cover it immediately with powder and remove it carfully after "drying". The advantage is that it sucks all the degreaser and the grease diluted in from the specimen. That needs experience to do correctly and unfortunetely I noted that some specimens wings becamed more fragile (but not so much and not all). The results are spectacular even with blue lycaenid (such as Iolaus) and saturniid or sphingid.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 8, 2020 10:25:04 GMT
Another note of degreasing with isopropyl alcohol: Most isopropanol that one could buy at a drugstore or supermarket it only 70% pure, the remainder being water. I wonder if soaking in 70/30 isopropanol/water will relax previously dry specimens? I'll try it on a moth and see what happens. Stay tuned. jh The answer is Yes. It won’t rehydrate a specimen as if it were in water alone, but some relaxing will occur. Chuck
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jhyatt
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Post by jhyatt on Apr 8, 2020 16:10:03 GMT
Chuck is right. I did the experiment of degreasing a lep in 70% isopropanol. 'Twere a Nymphalis milberti male, spread a decade ago. I immersed it in 70% isopropanol for 30 minutes, then removed it and air-dried.
The specimen took forever to dry, and was definitely partially relaxed -- the wings had drooped and fallen back from their spread positions; antennae were flexible. Apparently the more volatile isopropanol evaporates faster than the water, leaving a water-wet specimen that is quite slow to dry completely. So now I have a specimen apparently free of grease on the wings, but which I'll now have to fully relax and re-spread.
I wouldn't recommend using 70% isopropyl alcohol for degreasing lepidoptera. 100% isopropanol would probably work better, with less or no relaxing, but I have none on hand to try. At any rate, hexane, ethyl acetate, or acetone will do the job on butterflies and moths without relaxing them.
Beetles are a whole other order, and what's fine for them apparently isn't best for leps!
Cheers, jh
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karan
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 60
Country: Spain
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Post by karan on Apr 8, 2020 19:27:56 GMT
Thank you for the information Africaone. What you say makes much more sense than what I read in the post, which only advised to cover the butterfly dry with dust.
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karan
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 60
Country: Spain
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Post by karan on Apr 8, 2020 19:36:06 GMT
There are actually two threads on degreasing coleoptera (and others) on Insectnet.com. Both, like this thread, have titles that aren't readily apparent as to the content. May I suggest this thread become the Mother of All Degreasing threads, and be re-named? It would be great to have a single go-to source for this information. The insectnet.com threads are: insectnet.proboards.com/thread/3300/dynastes-hercules-lichyi-black-forminsectnet.proboards.com/thread/3300/dynastes-hercules-lichyi-black-formI'm going to start my response with more information, then go search for photos. I know I'm already going to be disappointed, since at the time I thought "I should take photos through this process" and I was TOO EFFING LAZY to do so. However, I believe I have a few photos that I already don't show the full experiment. To start was a large male specimen of D. (hercules) paschoali. I'll refer to this specimen as "DHP". This was a bred specimen, for what it's worth. When received it was dried. I relaxed it in tupperware with water-wetted paper towel on the bottom, and a splash of rubbing alcohol to inhibit mold. Once relaxed, I set the specimen, with the pin through the body via right elytra. The next day I noted spreading dark striations under the elytra, clearly body fluids. This continued to spread over the course of several days until both elytra were almost black. At this point the specimen was reasonable "set" i.e., dry enough that nothing flexed. Frustrated with the spreading darkness of evil, I soaked the specimen 24 hours, fully submerged in acetone within a brand new paint can, sealed. Upon removal from the acetone, 80% of the dark oil was removed from the elytra/wing area, as evidenced by color "returning." Unfortunately, within two hours the dark staining started to return. Over the course of a month or so I repeated this process at least a half dozen times, always with the same results. Increasingly frustrated, I poured rubbing alcohol into a Chinese made Air-Sealed Food Container (procured on Guadalcanal, previously unused) and placed the DHP specimen right-side up into the alcohol. It was amazing- instantly, roiling clouds of brown literally rushed from the DHP specimen throughout the rubbing alcohol in the container. The specimen remained in the alcohol for about 24 hours. 98% of the fat/ oil staining had disappeared, and has not returned in more than a year. I lit the acetone on fire (outdoors) and discarded the paint can. Second specimen was an all-black Dynastes hercules (henceforth denoted as DHB). Upon reading about a similar specimen on InsectNet.com (see links above) and noting my success with the DHP specimen, I tossed my "rare all black" DHB into the same airtight container, with the same alcohol (not same type, the exact same alcohol) as I had for DHP. Same results. The "all black" DHB was no longer black, and to this day more than a year later it has not discolored/ oiled/ greased. A female lubber grasshopper, fresh caught, also started the fatty oil discoloration and was tossed into the alcohol. The results were mediocre. The airtight container is made by Star Industrial Co. of Hong Kong. It is advertised on the label "Antifungus" and "able to retard the growth of bacteria." The alcohol is made by Assured, and 50% Isopropyl Alcohol. Lot L005284FA. Distributed by Greenbriar International. Purchased in USA. I still have some of the alcohol. In fact, I have the Star Industries container with the brownish alcohol still sitting here. Just in case somebody needs some sort of experiment or specimen. I'll see if I can locate any photos later. Chuck
Thanks Chuck, there is a lot of information to read, it is very good that in a single post we are gathering so much information about this topic. As soon as I can I will continue testing with Isopropyl but this time with a cerambicide that curiously also comes from Loretosales as in one of the cases in the Thread that you put me, the Part written by Patrick a seller called Beetles dundee.
the two links you put me are the same?
Karan
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 22, 2020 13:39:49 GMT
I dug up some photos of the Dynastes that had discoloration from body oils.
The green one (two images) it can be seen the oil seeping from the pin hole, and then spreading. That specimen is now green.
The "black dynastes" is no longer black. I failed to record which specimen it was, and now it looks like all the rest, so I can't take an "after" photo. Several 24-hour baths in acetone did nothing. a 24-hour bath in 50% alcohol cleaned it completely.
Chuck
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