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Post by africaone on Dec 18, 2018 9:29:21 GMT
Africaone, you make some good comments, and appear to have a strong opinion on the direction we need to travel I do believe you are right about us moving in circles, but I would like to know how we can change this direction within the confines of this forum? There is obviously some enthusiasm for understanding more about this group, however if images, descriptions and specimens are not going to cut it I am a little unclear as to how the majority of us without access to the correct resources can contribute ? Enlightenment would be greatly appreciated
What I mean first is that there are two different worlds between studying/making a systematic of the group, and to collect it. I understand the enthusiasm, being myself a collector. I learned very quickly that it is not enough, that cooled my enthusiasm in the first days. Sorry to cool ambiance, but posting photos on a forum is not enough, it is like a kind of game. Revising a group need certain logistic and methodology. It is not rare that a group of persons revise a group or a genus. Usually, one or two take the lead and the dispatching, and everyone makes a part of the job. All information must centralised on a common place (easy today with clouding). Softwork as discussions, sharing opinion and information can be made on the forum (may be on a private channel ?). Hardwork as genitalia, barcoding, bibliography, types checking in Museums, mapping, drawings, etc. must be shared between participants. The main problem is the distance between participants especially for assembling a root references collection (that may be temporary and dissolved after the work is finished), necessary to be relevant. Meetings can also be organised, time to time, especially to finalise the conclusion and organise publishing (in paper or on internet). Access to ressources (out the collection itself) must be organised by a leader or an advisor (there are experienced guys on the forum that can help). Don't forget that there is a cost for some ressources. Not necessary to make a big team (to much persons together will noise the project). Collectors are human with susceptibility, vanity, defaults of all kinds. Leading will need not only competences but also cleverness in human ressources. The best team is not necessary an assemblage of high competences, and confidence is an important factor. and … time, need of time ! The main line can be construct on 1- identifying the problems (populations, forms, biogeographic reliability, ..) This must be a collective work with many participants (as it start here on the forum, may be more structured). 2- decide which tool to use (genitalia, barcoding, patterns, biology, etc, …) and dispatch the works 3- Compilate the results 4- identifying / naming what come out the results (checking biblio, types, etc.) 5- make conclusions and summarise the project 6- write and publish (including drawings, photos, mapping, etc.…) some points can of course overlap. Surprises will surely happen especially if barcode (and genitalia) is used that will probably reveal unsuspected problems an will increase the work.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2018 9:33:13 GMT
I do believe you are right about us moving in circles, but I would like to know how we can change this direction within the confines of this forum? In reality we can't do much more than examine photos and discuss identities here on the forum. As africaone said that's effectively just going round in circles. I am a little unclear as to how the majority of us without access to the correct resources can contribute ? One way that someone who has many specimens AND can make genitalia preparations could contribute here on the forum would be to select an example of each phenotype, photograph each individual specimen, remove the abdomen and make a genitalia preparation then upload photos of the specimen and genitalia here. We could then compare genitalia of each specimen with the published genitalia preparations in literature. Long term it would be good to obtain legs from specimens in members' collections for DNA analysis using the NGS techniques recently developed. These not only obtain small sequences of mitochondrial DNA as used in the barcode gene but can produce complete sequences of 6,600 genes, and importantly it is possible to do this analysis using legs from old specimens in collections even though they have previously been relaxed. Traditional methods require fresh material, but NGS has enabled even very old specimens to be potentially analysed. Of course this would require a full project in a professional lab, but there are plans to undertake such a project in the pipeline. At that time I expect that the ICF members may be able to make significant contributions in terms of widespread sampling. Adam.
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mac
New Aurelian
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Post by mac on Dec 18, 2018 10:51:35 GMT
Great answers guys, thanks for the feedback
So if we are to progress this who can take the lead and what contributions would you like from individuals?
I am more than happy to support where I can, but unless someone can demonstrate how to do genitalia prep..... I have never done this, which does not mean I don’t want to learn, but I would have to be taught by someone..... any volunteers?
Re samples of legs etc again I am happy to send these to whomever if it helps as and when required
As with all of these projects time is one of the biggest constraints
Maybe the starting point is to see who wants to help, follow this with the skill sets of the individuals and then delegate out sections to willing members
For me I have specimens, but a limited skill set. I am willing to learn but would require some level of training Others may well be far more advanced and better positioned to contribute in a more effective manner
Thoughts ?
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 18, 2018 11:54:03 GMT
Systematics is a field of study on its own. To my mind, it is above and beyond assembly and cataloguing of series of specimens, which has its own, and significant, value.
Systematics requires source material, so it relies on availability of collected specimens. By curating such an impressive assemblage of specimens/ species, one has accumulated ready access to source material.
Our field formerly used visual appearance for systematics. As we know, some of that is right, some of that is wrong. We may well find the same with DNA (heresy!). I question if it's really important in many cases; if a population (perhaps one that is visually unique but not otherwise) lived in an area that was formerly forest and is now corn, does it matter? The population is lost, either way, and historical specimen records give us a glimpse of what was.
I'm not devaluing systematics, not at all. However, it is not the sole goal for accumulating a breadth of specimens from unstudied locations.
Chuck
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Post by cabintom on Dec 18, 2018 11:57:50 GMT
Trying to put absolutely a name on any specimens is too quick until we don't know what exist really. This is also partly why I didn't label the specimens I posted. My plan is to make up a plate grouping specimens by common characteristics. I think, when a group is a mess like this one seems to be, trying to shoehorn specimens into a certain identification is not really helpful. There is obviously some enthusiasm for understanding more about this group, however if images, descriptions and specimens are not going to cut it I am a little unclear as to how the majority of us without access to the correct resources can contribute ? I think perhaps, even without currently having access to the correct resources, if we can key in on the differentiating characteristics perhaps we can come to a conclusion regarding the number of species/subspecies involved in this group. I guess my suggestion is that we work towards a consensus identification key to start (even if we can't properly attribute names).
EDIT: I hadn't seen africaone or adam's detailed replies which, of course, include much better advice and direction to take than my amateur's suggestion.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2018 15:09:28 GMT
I think perhaps, even without currently having access to the correct resources, if we can key in on the differentiating characteristics perhaps we can come to a conclusion regarding the number of species/subspecies involved in this group. I guess my suggestion is that we work towards a consensus identification key to start (even if we can't properly attribute names).
EDIT: I hadn't seen africaone or adam's detailed replies which, of course, include much better advice and direction to take than my amateur's suggestion. Actually, the suggestion you crossed out would be very useful at least in the short term to help everyone identify their specimens by previously recognised characters which define each taxon (bearing in mind that the characters for males and females of the same taxon may differ). For example in male P. sosia we recently mentioned the rounded valve, absence of postdiscal white marks on forewing underside and uniform width of the forewing discal band. If we can make lists of the characters for each species/subspecies that may actually help people reorganise their specimens into groups based on recognised characters. It may also provide more clarity on the way to correctly identify each species, which are easy to assign distinguishing charaters to and which are not. This in itself would be useful. On the terminology of the postdiscal and submarginal bands also asked about earlier with reference to the while marks on the underside of the forewing near the tornus 'postdiscal' is the correct term for the band of which these spots form the lowest part, a few small spots may be present just outside this band and those are submarginal spots. Adam.
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mac
New Aurelian
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Post by mac on Dec 18, 2018 15:50:55 GMT
As a side note, and slightly left of field (and not totally sure how practical and or relevant it might be), I could have access to a 36tb raided nas drive. Just wondering how possible it would be to set a section of this up as an open access point for data / progress to be stored. We may need some technical info on how to set this up securely and or there is probably other ways of doing this in todays cloud based world. However if we are looking for a central point to group info maybe its an option?
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Post by cabintom on Dec 18, 2018 16:44:17 GMT
Actually, the suggestion you crossed out would be very useful at least in the short term to help everyone identify their specimens by previously recognised characters which define each taxon (bearing in mind that the characters for males and females of the same taxon may differ). Is there a way to add moderator posts to the beginning of the thread? It would be useful to have our working conclusions summarized at the beginning. (ie. a post containing an identification key, another with our "to do" list or something similar, etc.)
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2018 17:21:43 GMT
Theoretically I could move posts to the beginning of the thread, but to be frank many people would not see them because they (and myself) would normally go straight to the latest post or at least the latest page rather than starting at page one of the whole topic.
An alternative could be a separate "nireus group summary" thread, where only important posts can be placed. If you think it would be a good idea I could start one with the first post being "a rule" for posting in this thread, basically summary statements of important points only, no questions or replies which should all be posted here instead.
Alternatively I could lock the thread so that no-one can post replies and only myself or other moderators/admin could add/edit text or add further posts. The advantage of that would be that spurious posts could not be added to that thread, but it would require a moderator to add to it.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2018 17:53:19 GMT
Genitalia preparationsSomeone, maybe mac , suggested making genitalia preparations as one of the things we could do with specimens in our collections. I would like to point out that although it sounds simple to do it really isn't, and may be beyond the capability of many collectors to do in such a way as to be really worthwhile. Firstly not only do you really need a (preferably stereo) microscope to use while making the preparation and also to view the finished item, but you also need a certain amount of laboratory equipment (mostly relatively simple things, but you still need them) and chemicals in order to physically prepare the genitalia. You also need a camera that can be mounted on the microscope in order to photograph the genitalia preparation. Secondly you also need a certain amount of experience in order to make good quality genitalia preparations. Apart from issues of inability to see the parts due to poor preparation, incorrectly prepared genitalia can contain artefacts resulting from the process. I am the first to admit that I do not have either the equipment or any experience in genitalia preparation, I have always let co-authors who have both these assets do them as part of my studies. As an example, here is the method as stated in Hu et al. 2014 (Discovery of a third species of Lamproptera Gray, 1832 (Lepidoptera: Papilionidae). Zootaxa, 3786(4): 469-482): To observe the male genitalia, the abdomen was taken from the specimen and placed into a 1.5 mL Eppendorf tube, and 1 mL water was added to the abdomen to rehydrate the tissue at 50 °C for 30 min, then 1 mL 10% sodium hydroxide solution was used to digest soft tissue at 70 °C for 1 h. The treated abdomen was neutralized with 2% acetic acid and then dissected in a water-filled Petri dish under the stereoscope to remove residual tissues, scales, and hair. The genitalia were then transferred to 80% glycerol for 12 h to render them transparent. Photographs were taken with a Nikon DMX1200 digital camera (Nikon, Japan) mounted on the same stereoscope and automatically stacked using Helicon Focus 3.2 (Helicon Software, USA). After observation and photography, all parts of the genitalia were fixed on the same glue card bearing the foreleg and pinned with the specimen. Of course this methodology actually leaves out a lot of the practical information that the experienced taxonomist knows, such as exactly how to remove the genitalia from the abdomen, what needs to be cleaned off and how to do so without damaging the genitalia or creating artificial effects. While I do think it would be very important for someone to make genitalia preparations of the nireus group specimens I am just trying to point out here that it is not as easy as you may imagine to do them. As well as having the equipment and experience to be able to make the perparations the person who makes them also needs to have the time! Adam.
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Post by africaone on Dec 19, 2018 6:25:38 GMT
To learn how to do genitalia, is it good to have a teacher to show how to do, especially details and technique. Some of us have experience to make genitalia and can "teach" to unexperienced. Simply, find someone no far from you. May be a thread on the subject can be open to answer to any question and give advices or discuss different things ? Note that this technic require some materials and chemicals as pointed by Adam (Binocular is probably the decisive step). As the preparations need to be compared, it can be good to establish also a protocol on how to fix them exactely (position, slide or not, etc.)
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 19, 2018 8:00:20 GMT
As the preparations need to be compared, it can be good to establish also a protocol on how to fix them exactely (position, slide or not, etc.) Yes, that is another issue, as when the preparations are viewed at different angles they can appear to be different when they are actually identical. Adam.
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Post by bobw on Dec 19, 2018 9:31:57 GMT
Yes, that is another issue, as when the preparations are viewed at different angles they can appear to be different when they are actually identical. Adam. That's why a lot of people still draw them and publish the drawings rather than photos.
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mac
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Post by mac on Dec 19, 2018 16:22:07 GMT
Hmm, ok I will make some preliminary enquiries, I may well start at the Liverpool museum entomology department and see where that takes me prior to looking at a course Maybe I will find someone willing to support this idea. Unless any of you out there know of someone in the Liverpool / Manchester/ North Wales area of the U.K. that might like to help, it could be interesting albeit slow when juggling this with work
From the info provided the project may be too specialised, but if you don’t try you don’t know
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Post by africaone on Dec 21, 2018 7:11:21 GMT
another ressources for genitalia may be to find someone that makes and centralises all of them ... may be easier as sending by post abdomen is quite easy.
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