|
Post by wollastoni on Sept 8, 2016 16:24:19 GMT
|
|
|
Post by jshuey on Sept 8, 2016 17:00:48 GMT
Palm oil plantations in Indonesia are bad news and they get a lot of press here in the US.
But over the last two summers, I was surprised to see vast palm oil plantations in the Petén of Guatemala, and adjacent Chiapas as well. We saw a huge processing plant being built just outside the Monte Azules Biosphere Reserve - literally in the middle of nowhere. An infamous collecting locality - Chajul - is the source of most Mexican Agrias on the market, and located just a few miles from the new plant.
This plant will drive the conversion of forest toward plantation, and be the demise of many amazing species. The heavy trucks hauling fruit to the plant have already wrecked much of the Frontier Highway (the soil is simply squeezing out from under the pavement, creating long stretches of almost impassible mud, mixed with big chunks of asphalt).
John
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 8, 2016 18:47:39 GMT
Oh dear, stuff nature for the mighty dollar. So sad.
Adam.
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Sept 9, 2016 14:19:30 GMT
Oh dear, stuff nature for the mighty dollar. So sad. Adam.
Western culture was thrust upon these populations, and with it came the desire (need?) for things like machetes and outboard motors. Short of a global reset, there is no turning back. "We" have created the demand and need for money.
The alternatives to palm oil and logging exist. You all know the value of O. Alex and O. Victoria, for example- not to mention birds and reptiles. There are two problems though with turning to renewable resources (1) logging/ palm is easy, far easier than ranching and farming of livestock and (2) global controls of export of NR are often prohibitive.
If the global government really gave a shit, they would help developing nations to develop sustainable alternatives. CITES wouldn't be about control, it would be about education and assistance. But in fact, when it comes right down to it the politicians really don't care, they just give it lip service. Global leaders could put a stop to the destruction by banning trade in mined materials, palm oil, tuna, and timber-based products. But that won't happen.
The best thing you can do is be a realist, and ask the logging truck driver for a lift inland to see what you can catch.
Chuck
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Sept 9, 2016 14:43:25 GMT
Western culture was thrust upon these populations, and with it came the desire (need?) for things like machetes and outboard motors. Short of a global reset, there is no turning back. "We" have created the demand and need for money.
Well the Papuan case is a bit different... Indonesian army invaded West Papua and is selling the lands of locals to paper and palm oil companies. Nothing to do with "locals" wanting a better life. More like the Tibet case.
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Sept 9, 2016 15:26:44 GMT
Oh dear, stuff nature for the mighty dollar. So sad. Adam.
Western culture was thrust upon these populations, and with it came the desire (need?) for things like machetes and outboard motors. Short of a global reset, there is no turning back. "We" have created the demand and need for money.
The alternatives to palm oil and logging exist. You all know the value of O. Alex and O. Victoria, for example- not to mention birds and reptiles. There are two problems though with turning to renewable resources (1) logging/ palm is easy, far easier than ranching and farming of livestock and (2) global controls of export of NR are often prohibitive.
If the global government really gave a shit, they would help developing nations to develop sustainable alternatives. CITES wouldn't be about control, it would be about education and assistance. But in fact, when it comes right down to it the politicians really don't care, they just give it lip service. Global leaders could put a stop to the destruction by banning trade in mined materials, palm oil, tuna, and timber-based products. But that won't happen.
The best thing you can do is be a realist, and ask the logging truck driver for a lift inland to see what you can catch.
Chuck
The problem is that palm oil is used by more or less 5 billion people's everyday live. If O.alexandrea would start to be mass production the price could drop to O.priamus the only reason it is high is because it is unavaliable and market would fill up very quickly. How many people around the world would buy one time only each specimen ? Insect trade will never replace oil palm business . It is very sad reality. The only hope we can have that soon there will be enough millions of hectares of land designated to the plantations and some primery forest will be left alone by "lords of the world". Paul
|
|
leon
Junior Aurelian
Birthday : Feb 5
Posts: 95
Country: United States
|
Post by leon on Sept 9, 2016 15:42:34 GMT
It's also beginning to happen in Liberia because that country desperately needs stuff to export.
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Sept 9, 2016 16:43:16 GMT
Western culture was thrust upon these populations, and with it came the desire (need?) for things like machetes and outboard motors. Short of a global reset, there is no turning back. "We" have created the demand and need for money.
Well the Papuan case is a bit different... Indonesian army invaded West Papua and is selling the lands of locals to paper and palm oil companies. Nothing to do with "locals" wanting a better life. More like the Tibet case. It's worse than that, and indicative of the global world order. Papua was GIVEN to Indonesia by the global leaders. Indonesia did not invade, they were handed the region as a gift. Now, one mine in Papua alone pays US$7million/ day in taxes to the Indonesian government.
|
|
|
Post by nomad on Sept 10, 2016 17:29:56 GMT
No West Papua was not gifted to Indonesia by all the World leaders but one, John Kennedy. The American Government wanted to court Sukarno away from communism and Russia. The Dutch had little say in the matter, who were progressing towards autonomy. The States and Indonesia also had also an eye on the vast mineral wealth of West Papua discovered by the Dutch, the result the huge Freeport mine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 18:57:18 GMT
I think it's safe to say that where there is money to be made, power to be had and collectors to blame the environment will always come second.
|
|
|
Post by forster on Sept 11, 2016 18:12:04 GMT
Oh dear, stuff nature for the mighty dollar. So sad. Adam.
... The alternatives to palm oil and logging exist. You all know the value of O. Alex and O. Victoria, for example- not to mention birds and reptiles. There are two problems though with turning to renewable resources (1) logging/ palm is easy, far easier than ranching and farming of livestock and (2) global controls of export of NR are often prohibitive.
… Which alternatives would that be? The problem is that there are more than 7 billion people on planet earth and the population growth is exponential. I think it is nearly impossible to feed all those people without massive environmental destruction.
|
|
|
Post by nomad on Sept 12, 2016 6:31:45 GMT
There are too many people on planet earth and it cannot cope that is why we are destroying it. It was on the news the other day, that tiny Britain alone is one of the most depleted wildlife areas in the world. Even here our population has exploded, millions has swarmed in. No wonder species that are common all over Europe are rare here.
|
|
ciervo
Aurelian
Posts: 161
Country: Australia
|
Post by ciervo on Sept 12, 2016 14:41:15 GMT
It seems there is no escape. I baked some bread today (as I avoid palm and other vegetable oils) using a bread mix. Later to find (to my disgust i might add) that the dry flower mix contains PALM OIL. How is that even possible? It seems an increasing amount of products have palm oil and not enough consumers care enough to selectively avoid it...
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Sept 12, 2016 15:24:54 GMT
It seems there is no escape. I baked some bread today (as I avoid palm and other vegetable oils) using a bread mix. Later to find (to my disgust i might add) that the dry flower mix contains PALM OIL. How is that even possible? It seems an increasing amount of products have palm oil and not enough consumers care enough to selectively avoid it... Lets be realistic , 90% population don't care if they eat palm oil or not, neither they care where it comes from and at what cost. Entomologist amature or profesional and biologists we are aware of the issue, but no one else would select food or product in grocery store to avoid palm oil to safe some tropical forest thousends of kilometers away. Paul PS. I am seriously consider an entomological trip in Jan 2018 to Indonesia thanks to Olivier's advice. Do it before is too late.
|
|
|
Post by cabintom on Sept 12, 2016 16:56:16 GMT
I'd also make the point that in many parts of the world you simply don't have a choice. Here for example. Can't find butter, so if you need anything "butter like" in a recipe (for example), by necessity you're using a margarine-type product made out of "vegetable oil." This vegetable oil is largely palm oil.
Actually, the best quality vegetable cooking oil you can get here is palm oil.
Incidentally, a friend of mine has made the point that if it hadn't been for the introduction of palm nuts & palm oil the 1,000,000+ number people who died due to starvation during the most recent Congolese civil war would have been significantly greater. Now, I don't know if he has research to back this up, but I trust his word on this sort of topic.
|
|