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Post by luehdorfia on Aug 30, 2016 20:18:17 GMT
I read that in Northern Africa for example Colias croceus has no winter break and generation follows generation. Would it be possible to rear this species in a heated glass house in England? Are there any other palearctic species that I could rear during European winter? Alternatively I thought about rearing Australian or New Zealand species, since our winter is their summer. Does anyone have experience with that?
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Post by timmsyrj on Aug 31, 2016 9:03:07 GMT
the major concern for me would be heating cost to heat a greenhouse in the U.K all winter long, too much insulation (bubble wrap) would reduce the amount of light to grow the plants and heating an un insulated greenhouse would be expensive. I am attempting this winter to keep a small number of the Canary Island Large White butterfly going in a large spring cage in the east facing window of my spare bedroom at normal room temperature, keeping 40 or so larvae each generation feeding on Savoy cabbage which I have growing, they also need nasturtiums to lay on. Another issue is getting enough larval foodplant available, in the wild it either dies off with the first frost and is unavailable or goes dormant and not available in large replenishable quantities.
Rich
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Post by luehdorfia on Aug 31, 2016 13:59:05 GMT
I have a sort of second living room here, which is completely out of glass and with heating, just connected to the house, it gets really really warm inside here and I use it as my office. I thought that might be good for butterflies, it has a lot of light every day even during rainy days. This is really a conincidence, I also was thinking about the Canary Island Large White since they are really beautiful and quite special. So you would need to grow savoy cabbage and nasturtiums at the same time without it going dormant. Keep me updated about how it works out! I am really interested in that. Perhaps the shorter light periods also influence the appearance of the butterflies, or the size. If you have a good experience I will try something similar.
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Post by timmsyrj on Aug 31, 2016 15:02:31 GMT
I have been told that they are hard to get through the winter, food plant issues, those I have are taking Savoy cabbage so I'll keep them on that through the winter, I also have them taking horse radish leaves but the leaves die off after the first frost so unavailable. They eat a lot so I'll have to keep a small number only and sacrifice the rest or I'll run out of foodplant. They don't enter diapause, even when kept in low light and low temperatures, too low and they just die off, apparently.
I take it your second room of glass attached to the house is a conservatory which should be double glased so ideal for keeping a few butterflies going through the winter, I'd love one but due to the layout of my property I don't have the room, they usually extend the living room, my kitchen is the last room before my garden. I would have passiflora and heliconius if I had a conservatory.
Rich
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Post by nomihoudai on Aug 31, 2016 16:22:23 GMT
I read that in Northern Africa for example Colias croceus has no winter break and generation follows generation. Would it be possible to rear this species in a heated glass house in England? This is a misformulation, it should read as: "Colias croceus spends its winter in North Africa". There is no difference between the Colias croceus you see in your garden, and the ones in North Africa. So their natural instinct is to leave Europe and head South. I don't know if they will lay eggs in captivity and develop normally. Maybe someone can expand on this. Are there any other palearctic species that I could rear during European winter? Alternatively I thought about rearing Australian or New Zealand species, since our winter is their summer. Does anyone have experience with that? If there is anything harder than getting insects from the United States, then it is getting some from Australia... I have just 2 specimen in my collection off eBay from Australia. I have not yet come across an Australian that is seriously willing to send you dead stock, let alone live stock... (I'm still eager to get some, if somebody sees this message, and has a big heart for us folks in Europe). New Zealand does have less restrictions, but the few collectors there will make you pay for what they send. I have never tried getting live stock from there as the temperature differences in sending them will make it difficult, and you need a big stock of the (non native) host plants. About the whites, there is also nothing more awful than rotting cabbage in your house. I did it once and never again. The biggest issue with any winter breeding is getting enough fresh food for them. The easiest plants are Pyracantha and cherry laurel as they remain green. There is plenty of moth that feed on these. The end result might not look so great, but a lot of these caterpillars are fun to keep. I once had a winter breeding of Calliteara horsfieldii from Thailand, and it was a lot of fun.
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Post by nomihoudai on Aug 31, 2016 16:24:07 GMT
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Post by luehdorfia on Aug 31, 2016 20:32:04 GMT
Exactly, its a conservatory, I was searching for that correct word. Perhaps I will try to rear the foodplants first this winter, to try something with Colias and Cabbage white next year, but the idea with Heliconius and passiflora sounds great and very feasible. Heliconius should also live quite long, perfect for a small sunny conservatory.
I was about to ask one butterfly farm in Australia, but with such strict restrictions it probably wont work. I wanted to try to get Vanessa gonerilla gonerilla, since its not protected and could perhaps be reared on other urtica species not only urtica ferox. Although I heard that there are far not many Vanessa gonerilla as in the past, since everybody is getting rid of the Urtica ferox Ongaonga nettle plants.
I think rearing tropical moths will then definitely also be an option, thanks!
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Post by bobw on Sept 1, 2016 11:39:00 GMT
It's not easy rearing anything during a northern European winter. Obviously it's only possible with species where the foodplant stays green during the winter, then it is possible to feed larvae of some species. However, some species won't survive as larvae indoors no matter what time of the year you rear them and many species will only survive on growing foodplant.
Certainly, Heliconidae can be reared throughout the winter in a heated greenhouse; I know people who have done this but all have given up due to the cost of heating. The problem with rearing continuously brooded European species is when it comes to the adult stage as sunlight levels are just not high enough in the winter to get the adults into prime breeding condition so pairings are very hard to get. I do know someone who's managed to hand-pair C. jasius around Christmas time but that's about it.
I have reared C. croceus through the winter in an unheated greenhouse on Coronilla varia which kept its leaves all winter. The larvae don't diapause but slow right down and come up for a nibble on warm days, they just need protection from frost. From eggs laid in September I had adults emerge in April, these paired up and laid fertile eggs so the technique obviously works. I'm sure that they would produce adults in the middle of winter in a heated greenhouse but I think pairing would be extremely difficult.
Bob
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Post by timmsyrj on Sept 1, 2016 12:14:44 GMT
I don't know why the house should smell of rotting cabbage, I have 24 young plants in pots growing in a cage outdoors at the moment and another 24 cabbage plants in my unheated greenhouse, winter cabbage that are sown in late June / July can be harvested throughout the winter months, I plan to use them one at a time in an individual cage (still growing in the pot) with around 40 caterpillars and moving them onto the next cage as they grow, Savoy cabbage grow large, those I'm using in one of my greenhouses can easily rear 40+ caterpillars each, a trick I've been told by a neighbour who grows his winter cabbage outdoors on an allotment (purely for cooking) is when he harvests them he cuts through the stem about 2 inches from the ground level and then using a sharp knife he cuts a "X" in the top of this stem about 1inch deep, within 3-4 months he has 4 more, smaller cabbages from the same root, perfect for early spring. Living plants shouldn't rot.
My original greenhouse was set up 15years ago and lined with fly screen mesh, which is fibreglass reinforced for extra strength, I put 2 Passion flower plants, an aristolochiae plant (none evergreen but hardly) and 6 skimmia japonica plants, I had heliconius species flying in there from late May / early June untill the first frosts killed them off, some years it was possible to have hundreds of adults emerge continuously for 3 months, once the passionflower is established it grows like mad, grow lantana plants for nectar and add a bit of heat (in a conservatory attached to a house, room temp will be fine) they will go all year round and heliconius and passionflower prefer lower light levels with a min temp of around 16-18c at night. If you can get the natural hybrids (melpomene x erato or cydno etc) you will get all sorts of colour forms and variation or just buy 10 pupae of each from Stratford butterfly farm or London pupae supplies and leave them to it.
Rich
P.S there are some great led lights available now that imitate natural sunlight almost perfectly, marine fish tank or hydroponics lights, even with built in controls to simulate sun rise and sun set, worth investing in if you are serious about wanting to rear stuff all year round, they will even help heat the room a little.
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Post by nomihoudai on Sept 1, 2016 12:41:42 GMT
I don't know why the house should smell of rotting cabbage I didn't have any potted plants back then or the possibility for potted plants, so I just used to feed them with bought cabbage from a shop.
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Post by timmsyrj on Sept 1, 2016 15:42:45 GMT
Ah, I see, the only issue with bought cabbage from a shop is you only get the cabbage heads without stalks, if you have a local farm shop you can probably pick up loads of the lower leaves which are much bigger than the leaves of the head, which is the part we cook, the lower leaves usually have quite a stalk so they can be placed in water to keep them fresh longer, maybe a local market have them, these leaves are removed and usually composted as they are older, not so good looking and don't sell, but you need a reliable supply that hasn't been treated with pesticide. Using cabbage leaves in boxes requires changing them morning and night as they go limp too quickly I've found, the horseradish leaves I've used can be as long as 70cm with a stalk about 15cm which is ideal for sticking in a vase of water with cotton wool to ensure the caterpillars don't fall in and drown.
Rich
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Fede
New Aurelian
Posts: 4
Country: Spain
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Post by Fede on Nov 28, 2016 17:54:46 GMT
Hello! There are any other species that can be reared during winter in proper conditions on inside home. In example, Papilio machaon caterpillars can be found in some parts of Spain during winter in nature. I've found last instar cats on January with temperatures about 5ÂșC. Zerinthia rumina can be flying as early as february also. For breeding P.machaon and relatives (polyxenes i.e.) the evergreen Crithmum maritimum can be used.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 8, 2016 17:23:50 GMT
There is a big difference between rumina and machaon hibernation. In the case of Zerynthia rumina the species is univoltine, adults emerge in spring, and it needs the stimulation of a cool season followed by warming weather in order to trigger emergence. The adult will not emerge unless it has passed through the winter first; whereas in Papilio machaon, a multivoltine species, diapause is triggered by environmental factors including daylength, temperature and foodplant quality. If diapause is not induced by environmental factors the adults will emerge from the pupae after about 2 weeks. The main trigger to induce diapause is shortening daylength during 4th to 5th instar, although some pupae of each generation will actually go into diapause naturally.
It is perfectly possible to keep Papilio machaon going for many generations if they are reared in conditions that do not trigger diapause. The best way to do that is by using artificial light to lengthen the day beyond 14 hours or more, and keep the larvae at about 30C in the daytime and 25C at night. You also need to be able to provide good quality foodplant with young growing shoots. I reared ssp. hippocrates continuously for 8 generations here on year. Having said that, I have noticed that allowing them to go into diapause seems to 'refresh' the vitality of the stock compared to stock that has not been in diapause for several generations.
Adam.
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Post by bobw on Dec 8, 2016 23:43:29 GMT
There is a big difference between rumina and machaon hibernation. In the case of Zerynthia rumina the species is univoltine, adults emerge in spring, and it needs the stimulation of a cool season followed by warming weather in order to trigger emergence. The adult will not emerge unless it has passed through the winter first; Adam. Not quite true I'm afraid Adam. I go to the Costa del Sol in the south of Spain quite a lot and rumina has two broods there. It's common from February until early May, then there's a second brood (admittedly not in the same numbers) in October. I must admit I was surprised the first time I saw it in October. Bob
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 9, 2016 8:25:36 GMT
There is a big difference between rumina and machaon hibernation. In the case of Zerynthia rumina the species is univoltine, adults emerge in spring, and it needs the stimulation of a cool season followed by warming weather in order to trigger emergence. The adult will not emerge unless it has passed through the winter first; Adam. Not quite true I'm afraid Adam. I go to the Costa del Sol in the south of Spain quite a lot and rumina has two broods there. It's common from February until early May, then there's a second brood (admittedly not in the same numbers) in October. I must admit I was surprised the first time I saw it in October. Bob Bob, That is very interesting, and I apologise for my error. Of course I have no personal experience with Z. rumina, living about 5,000 miles away, and I was not aware that there can be a second generation later in the year. This implies that actually the cold period followed by warming in spring is not the (only) trigger to break diapause in that species, unlike in the tropical univoltine species that I am more familiar with. Adam.
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