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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 6:17:21 GMT
Thank you all for the further information. Tom -nice to see there is still pristine forest in that area. I have not seen the colour figure of P. antizox, I am guessing its D' Abrera copyright. Well as to T.A. Barns I believe what he encountered was something really special perhaps a extreme aberration, although the wing shape is similar to antimachus, it would be unlikely to have blue-green forewing bands. I suppose there is the possibility that T.A. Barns saw something that has yet to be discovered perhaps unlike the males of P. antimachus keeping to the high canopy. As the habitat is intact I doubt it is extinct . I also very much doubt that Barns made it up, being a highly skilled observer and dedicated explorer-collector. I feel he would have unlikely to have traveled across Africa with its many dangers to go back to a remote part of the Congo to look for the elusive butterfly. Whatever he saw on the Lindi River in 1919 must have been something really special for him to mount an African expedition with one goal in mind so soon after returning to England.
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Post by mygos on Dec 18, 2014 12:41:16 GMT
I have asked Bernard d'Abrera the authorisation to use his photograph, and I am awaiting his answer ... Nomad, you are quite right that Barns would not get there if they was nothing real about P. Antizox. I will ask my friend Steve Collins to see what his thoughts are ?
A+, Michel
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 18, 2014 13:18:34 GMT
Or it was a nice story that he invented to get some credits for his next expedition... ;-)
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2014 15:22:42 GMT
The text of p. 39 of Bull. Hill. Mus. Witley, vol. 1 (from where Nomad posted the drawing) is rather interesting:
'AN ELUSIVE PAPILIO.' This photograph is from a coloured drawing made by Mr. T. A. Barns from memory. It represents a species of Papilio of which two specimens were seen by Mr. Barns in the district of the Upper Congo. A similar species, but probably identical, has been reported from Liberia. No specimen has been obtained of this insect, and it must be exceedingly rare. We reproduce Mr. Barns' drawing in the hope that entomologists in Africa will look out for the insect. We should be glad of any reports from anyone who has seen it. The band on the fore wing is of a brighter blue than in zalmoxis, and the coloration of the hind wing is similar to that of antimachus.
Note that it was also apparently seen in Liberia (but without citation), a very long way away from Congo, but both antimachus and zalmoxis do occur in that country.
It is very strange that no specimens have ever been found since then, unless indeed it is a very rarely occurring natural hybrid between the two species. This seems somewhat unlikely based on the appearance as drawn by Barns, as I would expect a hybrid to have intermediate individual markings, rather than having forewings similar to zalmoxis and hindwings like antimachus.
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 18, 2014 15:34:27 GMT
A recessive form of zalmoxis ?
A kind of "honorathii" ?
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 17:04:08 GMT
Michel. I should very much like to hear what your friend Steve Collins has to say on this matter and also it would be most interesting to hear Bernard d' Abrera views. Thank you.
Peter.
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 18:44:50 GMT
Or it was a nice story that he invented to get some credits for his next expedition... ;-) I have of course considered all the options when regarding Barns report of the giant Swallowtail Papilio antizox. I wonder if he had managed to capture a specimen and if it was indeed a new species what would Joicey and Talbot have named it. It is true that T.A. Barns was at the end of his year long journey through Africa when he encountered this wonder and sceptics might have said he invented the story to gain support and finance from Joicey for a further expedition and what better way than a tale of superb unknown rarity. However, there is a number of problems with this idea. Barns, during that expedition, had made a very large and fine lepidoptera collection for Joicey with a wonderful array of new species that must have pleased the private collector no end. Joicey would have wanted his main African collector back in darkest Africa in his never ending quest for new species sooner than later. Indeed a few years later Barns was proving his worth as one of the very best insect collectors capturing wonderful endemic Charaxes and others on the island of Principe and Sao Tome. I can imagine Joicey's excitement at receiving those. To get back to the Congo Barns had to cross the African continent, no doubt collecting many wonderful butterflies along the way. The many dangers he faced were all too real. Reading his book, he seems obsessed with his quest and did all he could to try to capture the Swallowtail but failed. I would like to think Barns was without doubt an English Gentleman and I believe his account.
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 18:58:20 GMT
Note that it was also apparently seen in Liberia (but without citation), a very long way away from Congo, but both antimachus and zalmoxis do occur in that country. It is very strange that no specimens have ever been found since then, unless indeed it is a very rarely occurring natural hybrid between the two species. This seems somewhat unlikely based on the appearance as drawn by Barns, as I would expect a hybrid to have intermediate individual markings, rather than having forewings similar to zalmoxis and hindwings like antimachus. Adam. Adam. I have just seen a reference to a paper by Szabolcs Safian ( University of West Hungary ) entitled Observations of Hill-Topping behaviour by the Giant African Swallowtail - Papilio antimachus Drury 1782 and other recent records from Liberia West Africa. Abstract .Hill topping as a mate location strategy of the Giant African Swallowtail was observed in Liberia's Nimba Mountains ( Nimba county) and Putu Range (Grand Gedeh) and is presented in detail.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2014 19:03:24 GMT
Indeed, I very much doubt that he made up the account in order to be sent back to Africa post haste, but as a possibility it at least needed to be mentioned. There is also the other unlikely possibility that he had a fever and hallucinated, and drew his sketch from that memory.
I do think though that he really did see something, maybe an aberration, a hybrid or an unknown species. My only major doubt is that if he was in a canoe on the river how much of the upperside of the butterfly did he actually see. Maybe much of the pattern is actually based on the underside.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2014 19:15:03 GMT
Adam. I have just seen a reference to a paper by Szabolcs Safian ( University of West Hungary ) entitled Observations of Hill-Topping behaviour by the Giant African Swallowtail - Papilio antimachus Drury 1782 and other recent records from Liberia West Africa. Abstract .Hill topping as a mate location strategy of the Giant African Swallowtail was observed in Liberia's Nimba Mountains ( Nimba county) and Putu Range (Grand Gedeh) and is presented in detail. I just found a copy online here: www.redalyc.org/pdf/455/45529269005.pdfThe citation for this paper is Sáfián 2013. SHILAP Revta. lepid., 41 (163): 323-329. Thanks for making me aware of it, but I was actually referring to a lack of citation to the supposed sighting of "antizox" in Liberia in the Bull. Hill. Mus. report I posted earlier. Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 18, 2014 19:28:36 GMT
I also hope the "antizox" story is a true story and that Barns has really seen an aberration, an hybrid or a secret species.
In those times, "fake" stories to impress European entomologists and/or readers were common though. In "Mes chasses aux papillons" from Le Moult, there are a lot of "invented" stories about feroce beasts' behaviours. Those behaviours could have been seen as credible by European readers of the early 20th century who knew nearly nothing about anacondas, crocodiles and pumas' behaviours. If you read it with today's knowledge, you clearly see that Le Moult was inventing things. In this book though, no entomological facts seems fake to me, he "improved" only the ferocity of other animals (felines and reptiles).
Le Moult breton childhood was tough though (in those times Britanny was very poor) and he has been during all his life in a personal quest of wealth and glory.
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 21:23:03 GMT
Yes I have heard of fake stories regarding butterflies, but there was no really need for Barns to make this up, he had discovered many new species. As for being in a canoe with fever, Barns does not mention this in his book and is unlikely to have been out butterfly collecting crossing a wide river while in that condition. As for his views of his large Papilio, he mentions it circled just around of reach of his net and he had a good view of the upperside. It must also be remember Le Moult was also a professional collector and he was also a dealer interested in making money. I expect a number of collector -explorers have added a little to enhance their adventures. The only value of Papilio antizox to Barns was the captured of a specimen to present to Joicey. He was not on a retainer but he got payed by collecting new or good specimens for the Hill museum.
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Post by nomad on Dec 18, 2014 21:28:00 GMT
Adam thank you for the link to the very interesting P. antimachus paper.
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Post by cabintom on Dec 18, 2014 22:14:15 GMT
Yes, thanks Adam for sharing the link. I've only encountered P. antimachus once... what a sight! (missed it by inches and watched it fly off into the sky... from a distance it truly looked like a small bird)
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Post by deliasfanatic on Dec 18, 2014 22:28:56 GMT
Steve Collins told me years ago that he was swimming in a river and noticed an antimachus gynandromorph (!) flying along the shore. Not having a net, he captured it with his shirt! Probably the only antimachus gynandromorph known. Due to the size difference in male/female sides, I wonder if it could only fly in circles
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