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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 13, 2015 2:53:51 GMT
I was just pondering this thought so I've posted it. Would like to hear if others think new species are still possible within the rugged confines of New Guinea, the Solomon Island Group, or Borneo. After all, the legendary okapi was not discovered until 1901.
I know that much work and research has been conducted on this group of butterflies over the last century (particularly the last half of it); however, could something have been missed in some little known or hidden valley ? One would like to think there are always possibilities....
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Post by deliasfanatic on Oct 13, 2015 3:13:50 GMT
I think it's highly doubtful, for a number of reasons: they're very visible and much sought-out; most live in lowland areas; they're strong fliers and not normally restricted to a small area (alexandrae being an exception). On the other hand, it's very likely that new Delias remain to be discovered in New Guinea, due to the opposite reasons: many are restricted to small areas, and the majority are in montane areas (often very remote and difficult to access); they're small and easily overlooked, unless one is specifically seeking them.
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Post by africaone on Oct 13, 2015 4:37:49 GMT
I remember that same was told before we discovered Charaxes jolybouyeri only some years ago : not so small, existing in at least 3 big countries (and not so rare in at least one of them), and all three countries quite collected (one espacially by Charaxes collectors). To say ... why not ?  |
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 13, 2015 11:59:45 GMT
You never know, quite a lot of New Guinea is un explored, and one or two islands remain so, Stichophthalma devyatkini (spec. nov) descovered in 2013 in a small mountainous area of Vietnam, females of these have a forewing length around 72-75mm so they are not small, then there is the Stichophthalma I have photo's of on the Stichophthalma nourmahal thread that is possibly an undescribed new taxon according to Song-yun Lang a taxonimist from China who is working on this species ( and all nymphalidae ), l have sent photo's to others who have worked on this genus or family for their responses. Lang's response was that it could be an "un-described taxon in the nourmahal group" I suggested it could be the type specimen of Stichophthalma timmsii  ? Rich |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 13, 2015 16:38:54 GMT
It is rather unlikely that someone will actually find a new species of birdwing that has never been seen before, but distinctly possible that what was considered to be a single species may be shown to comprise two or more separate species. Having said that, you never know what could suddenly be discovered in unusual places. As Rich has pointed out, several new taxa of Stichophthalma have recently been found in Vietnam. Maybe one of them will be named "timmsii" and another be called "richii", but what would happen if they are subsequently found to be subspecies of the same previously unknown species. Would richii become a subspecies of timmsii, or the other way round?  Adam. |
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Post by nomad on Oct 13, 2015 16:50:44 GMT
I would have to agree with deliasfanactic here. I think that it would be highly unlikely that such a large insect as a new birdwing will turn up on the mainland of New Guinea or its smaller islands. New populations of known birdwings have recently been found, such as tithonus and paradisea on Yapen Island and paradisea along the River Digul in Western New Guinea.
I believe most of the new species of butterflies that will be found in New Guinea will be Delias and a number of those species have yet to be rediscovered. A good example are the recent expeditions to the remote Foja Mountains where several new species of Delias turned up but no new birdwings.
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Post by nomad on Oct 13, 2015 17:03:48 GMT
It is rather unlikely that someone will actually find a new species of birdwing that has never been seen before, but distinctly possible that what was considered to be a single species may be shown to comprise two or more separate species. Adam. My monies on O. paradisea arfakensis |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 13, 2015 17:11:43 GMT
I agree with my Delias friends here. Unfortunately I doubt that a birdwing species could have been missed in New Guinea, new ssp maybe. But I would be very happy to be proved wrong. Birdwings are highly visible, they are not exclusive canopy fliers, most of them are lowland species and New Guinea is not anymore an unknown island, unfortunately. Today it is a palm oil industry island with some remaining virgin forests on Mountain chains and in very wet lowland areas. It will soon be like Borneo ecological disaster. Though there are still plenty of Papuan species of rhopalocera to be found in the species that flies above 1500m (Delias, Lycaenidae, Hesperiidae) and of course plenty of nice moths. In 2009, I have spent only 2 weeks in the Baliem and Pass valleys (which are not the most unexplored parts of New Guinea) : results : I have seen an undescribed Lycaenidae ( Epimastidia yiwikana) and caught a moth that have not been caught since Meek ( Argyrolepidia palaea), and who knows what I have missed. New Guinea remains the perfect place to make discoveries. Henk van Mastrigt in 2 days hunting in the Foya Mounts discovered several species new to science. The only issue in New Guinea is how to reach badly explored areas, and how to arrive there before the chainsaws. |
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 13, 2015 18:07:43 GMT
Thank you everyone for your considerate and informative replies.
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 14, 2015 15:36:31 GMT
I appreciate the chances of a new species are slim, new sub.species maybe, but in 2005 the expedition into the Foja mountains turned up dozens of new species to science including the Golden Mantled tree Kangaroo and the first new species of bird descovered on New Guinea since 1939, the Smoky Honeyeater not small insects or amphibians. New species of Delias are turning up on new expeditions, they are small creatures in comparison, the second largest insect ever was recently descovered in Vietnam as reported already on here, granted not a large showy species, a well camouflaged stick insect but they are there and probably seen on a daily basis, just not by the very small percentage of us who name them and search them out.
" a tree falls in a forest with no one around, does it make a noise??" A large showy insect flying in a remote, inaccessible location with no one around, does it still exist, I for one certainly hope so, else what's the point of looking?
Rich
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 14, 2015 15:45:53 GMT
It is rather unlikely that someone will actually find a new species of birdwing that has never been seen before, but distinctly possible that what was considered to be a single species may be shown to comprise two or more separate species. Having said that, you never know what could suddenly be discovered in unusual places. As Rich has pointed out, several new taxa of Stichophthalma have recently been found in Vietnam. Maybe one of them will be named "timmsii" and another be called "richii", but what would happen if they are subsequently found to be subspecies of the same previously unknown species. Would richii become a subspecies of timmsii, or the other way round? Adam. Ah, Papilio chikae and hermeli |
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 14, 2015 16:41:02 GMT
As you can see, similar odd discoveries still do happen.
Argyronympha rubianensis masolo was found on Tetepare Island, which is only some 5km from Rendova. It may not be a strong flier, but certainly strong enough that it should not be a distinct ssp so close to Rendova! Yet it is.
In Solomons one will commonly observe Euploea far out at see, between the major islands. So why there do we have very unique ssp? And with O. urvilleanus arguably not found on Makira, if OU does happen to be there- or somewhere else- perhaps it is a unique ssp? Who knows.
In Solomons many islands are split down the back by mountain ranges which present a migration challenge to Ornithoptera. Who knows what's on the backside of some island? Likely? No. Possible? Yes.
Just because others have "been there" doesn't mean they've missed anything. Tennent spent 18 months in Solomons. I have him the first Polyura Jupiter from Makira (caught at the friggin' airport), a new lycaenid (caught not far off the road). I also had to correct his draft of the Butterflies of Solomons Islands because he claimed Graphium sarpedon to be uncommon, yet I'd observed many dozens at one time at the top of the well travelled Mount Austin. And on and on. Likewise I've observed (and failed to capture, dammit) two other species of butterflies not reported from Solomon Islands. All this stuff was right under everyone's noses.
JT probably doubled the known taxa from Vanuatu when he spent some time there.
Is there a unique Ornithoptera in PNG or Solomons? Which ssp is on Tetepare? Well, who last visited Otang Java, or the numerous atolls west of Manus? Who's sat on top of the canopy in Finschhafen for two weeks? Nobody.
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Post by nomad on Oct 14, 2015 16:54:05 GMT
Is there any canopy- forest left in Finschhafen to climb let alone sit on |
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Post by exoticimports on May 2, 2016 16:02:09 GMT
Is there any canopy- forest left in Finschhafen to climb let alone sit on
If you go inland and get off the plain it gets quite jungly.
Even Viti Levu, which has been heavily cleared, has a significant amount of virgin forest if you go inland.
Chuck
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Post by trehopr1 on May 5, 2016 7:02:48 GMT
After reading over this thread again I have to say that I still remain "optimistic" that we may one day see a new birdwing described. And not a subspecies. I say this because I truely believe there is a lot more undiscovered country in PNG than people think. Weather it be little known valleys or the backside of some mountain chain or a food plant no one has ever seen in a localized niche --- there are always possibilities .
Another point to consider is that not all birdwing species are necessarily big butterflies easily seen as many have mentioned. Think for a moment how rather smallish rothchild's birdwing is. And how about the even smaller meridionalis. Lest I mention such Troides species as andromache, rhadamantus, dohertyi, and others. I've seen cecropia moths bigger in wingspan than all of these. My point is that why is it not possible for a species of birdwing unknown to science and in the size range as mentioned; not live in some little known valley of PNG in a localized environment ?
I remain hopeful ....
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