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Post by satyrinae on Jul 31, 2015 21:24:16 GMT
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 31, 2015 22:00:33 GMT
It says "in lit." which normally means that this name has not yet been published but the paper has been submitted for publication. I have never heard of it, or information on a population from southern Morocco.
It will be interesting to see the publication when it comes out, and how much real evidentiary justification there is for new species status. I guess we will just have to wait and see the published evidence for ourselves.
Adam.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 8:39:55 GMT
just taken a pair of papilio saharae off the boards but never heard of neosaharae, I would imagine Michel Tarrier could shed some light on it.
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 4, 2015 20:20:56 GMT
Hello,
Michel Tarrier has sent me these information (in French) about Papilio neosaharae and gave me the authorization to post it here. The full description will soon be published in Alexanor periodical.
Bonjour Olivier,
Je suis arrivé avant-hier du Maroc où, pour ainsi dire, j'ai encore passé 6 mois depuis février. Donc. réponse en hâte.
Cela faisait longtemps, vingt ans peut-être, que j’étais intrigué par des colonies de Porte-queues, morphologiquement et éco-éthologiquement quelque peu intermédiaires entre Papilio machaon et P. saharae, vivant en effectifs plutôt fournis et étroitement tributaires, voire polarisés par de très vastes pans d’une Rue érémicole : Haplophyllum tuberculatum, et seulement sur cette plante saharo-arabique des sols aréneux de la steppe del'érémial. Il en était ainsi au nord d’Askaoun, dans le Djebel Sirouade l’Anti-Atlas nord-oriental et d'un petit adrar près de Boumia, dans le piémont septentrional du Djebel Ayachi (Plateau de l’Arid). Jusqu’à la parution d’une intéressante notule de Laurent Voisin qui m’incita à revisiter une de ces colonies inféodées a la Rue en question dans la région Col de Kerdous, dans l’Anti-Atlas sud-occidental.
La larve, polymorphe, n'est ni celle de machaon, ni celle de saharae. L'osmatérium est du type machaon (rouge et court) et non saharae (brun et plus long). Chez l'imago, la taille est plutôt petite à très petite, comme saharae. On compte le même nombre d'articles antennaires que chez saharae(= 30-31 segments). L'abdomen est long chez le mâle, comme chez machaon, tandis qu'il est plus court chez saharae. Les exemplaires avec lesqueues courtes ou très courtes ne sont pas exceptionnels, il enexiste même dont l'expansion caudale est très brève, comme chezP. hospiton. Cette variation caudale ne nous est pas connue chez saharae, pas davantage chez machaon. Il serait oiseux de s’acharner à isoler des traits ségrégatifs des patterns respectifs des imagos, tant ceux-ci sont tout autant inconstants que ressemblants. Il s'agit évidemment d'un proximae à ressemblance superficielle avec ses proches et, à l'évidence, une species crescendi née d'une ancestrale introgression du patrimoine génétique de machaon dans celui de saharae, entité fondatrice de cette nouvelle espèce biologique, laquelle n'intervient que lorsque le site est exclusivement recouvert de la Rue en question, sur un mode monospécifique. Car sur des Haplophyllum isolés, on rencontre des machaons vrais, tandis qu'au Maroc saharae vrai est strictement tributaire des deux espèces de Deverra sud-atlasiques.
Type de vol : aussi impétueux que celui de saharae vrai. À l'instar de saharae, sténoèce et casanier, neosaharae reste bien localisé à son site et à sa plante, et ce en dépit de l'impression que donnent les imagos tout aussi fougueusement aériens et anémophiles que ceux de saharae. Tandis que machaon est plutôt euryèce, erratique,ubiquiste, expansif, voyageur et migrateur .
L'irruption taxinomique d'une telle nouvelle espèce si affine à ses proches incitera à la suspicion ou pourra faire rire certains.Neosaharae sera reconnu dans quelques décades, comme ce fut le cas de saharae, cet ancien "machaon famélique" !!.
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Post by africaone on Aug 5, 2015 10:22:48 GMT
texte pur jus Tarrier ! we not far from an official publication
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 11:16:44 GMT
translation?
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 5, 2015 18:11:36 GMT
Dear dunc, the translation is hard as Michel Tarrier use a very technical and even poetic language. But I will try. For precise information, please use the French version above.
My English translation for the forumists :
Hello Olivier 2 days ago I came back from Morocco where, to say so, I have once again spent 6 months since February. So, just a fast answer :
I have been curious for about twenty years of some colonies of swallowtails which are morphologically and eco-ethologically somewhat intermediary between Papilio machaon and Papilio saharae, living in somewhat numerous colonies, totally linked and living around a eremicole plant : Haplophyllum tuberculatum. They are found only near this saharo-arabic plant from the arenous grounds of this steppe del' érémial. I have found them in the North of Askaoun, in the Djebel Siroua from North Oriental Anti Atlas and in a small adrar near Boumia in the septentrional Piemont of Djebel Ayachi (Arid Plateau). It is the publication of an interesting note from Laurent Voisin that incited me to revisit one of those colonies linked to that plant in the Col de Kerdous area, in the South Occidental Anti-Atlas. The larvae, polymorphic, isn't the one of machaon, nor the one of saharae. The osmaterium looks like the one of machaon (red and short) and differs from the one of saharae (brown and longer). The imago is rather small like saharae. We count the same number of antennae articles than in saharae (= 30-31 segments). The abdomen is long for the male as for machaon, whereas it is shorter for saharae. Specimens with short or very short tails are not rare, there are also some with extremely short tails like in P. hospiton. This tail variation is not known in saharae, nor in machaon. It would be useless to try and isolate some specific patterns of the imago as the variation is very high. This species is of course a proximae with superficial ressemblance with its relatives and it is of course a "species crescendi" born from an ancestral introgression of the genetic patrimoine of machaon into the one of saharae, founding entity of that new biological species. This happens only when the locality is exclusively covered by the foodplant in a monospecific mode. Because on isolated Haplophyllum, one meets some true machaon, while in Morocco the true saharae is strictly linked to two species of South Atlasic Deverra.
Flight type : as impetuous as the one of the true saharae. Like saharae which is sténoèce and casanier, neosaharae stays very localised to its spot and to its plant, despite the vigorous impression that imago give, which are very aerian like saharae. While machaon is rather euryèce, erratic, ubiquitous, expensive, traveller and migrant.
The taxinomic irruption of such a new species so close from its relative will raise suspicion and make some laugh. Papilio neosaharae will be recognized and accepted in some decades, as it was the case for saharae, this former "famelic machaon".
Hope this translation will be useful. There are some very technical words but I have done my best.
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Post by mygos on Aug 5, 2015 18:20:22 GMT
Well done Olivier, as it was not an easy translation for sure !
A+, Michel
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 5, 2015 18:35:23 GMT
Thanks Michel. Pictures of the foodplant, Haplophyllum tuberculatum :
Pictures from sahara-nature.com
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Post by timmsyrj on Aug 6, 2015 6:55:29 GMT
Very interesting, many thanks for the translation Olivier, much appreciated, I for one would love to see photo's of the variation in the tails and photo's of the larvae in possible but with a paper coming out we'll probably have to wait. I would be interested in a copy when it's available.
Rich
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 8:58:30 GMT
many thanks Olivier.
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 6, 2015 9:59:29 GMT
You are welcome my friends.
Michel Tarrier has also sent me some pictures of Papilio neosaharae larvae, imago and antennae.
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Post by africaone on Aug 6, 2015 14:35:09 GMT
You are welcome my friends.
Michel Tarrier has also sent me some pictures of Papilio neosaharae larvae, imago and antennae.
has it been published yet ? dangerous to let so many information before the official paper
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Post by michel on Sept 30, 2016 5:12:19 GMT
Hello, The description of Papilio saharae is published for a while: Tarrier, M. - Description préliminaire d'un nouveau Porte-queue érémicole du Maroc (Lepidoptera Rhopalocera Papilionidae). Alexanor 27 (3-4) : 171-183 I have the PDF but I do not see how to include it here. If anyone wants to contact me: micheltarrier@gmail.com Cheers Michel
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 30, 2016 11:42:06 GMT
Surprisingly the original description does not include photos of the holotype, only photos of living specimens. I would very much like to see photos of the spread holotype (both sides) and data labels. Are photos available?
Adam.
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