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Post by cabintom on Mar 4, 2019 14:22:52 GMT
all these energy before knowing if nurettini and chrapkowskoides are really conspecific ... ? may be yes, may be not ... That's why the real systematic work needs to be done before nomenclature action. That's a good point (made again). If mac is correct in his assessment of the specimens figured on my plate, then P. chrapkowskii, P. chrapkowskoides & P. chrapkowskoides nurettini are all separate species. Or, ignoring the confusion of names, and based solely on identifying characteristics there are 5 (or 6) species involved in this group in NE DRC.
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Post by africaone on Mar 5, 2019 8:25:57 GMT
all these energy before knowing if nurettini and chrapkowskoides are really conspecific ... ? may be yes, may be not ... That's why the real systematic work needs to be done before nomenclature action. That's a good point (made again). If mac is correct in his assessment of the specimens figured on my plate, then P. chrapkowskii, P. chrapkowskoides & P. chrapkowskoides nurettini are all separate species. Or, ignoring the confusion of names, and based solely on identifying characteristics there are 5 (or 6) species involved in this group in NE DRC. As I didn't study myself the group, I can't tell many more. But I think that nurettini and chrapkowskoides are not the same sp ... lyaeus is probably not the same sp as nireus, etc. etc. It is the complete dark for many questions (and what to say for some other African groups , quite all ... ) and again, when a such study will take place ? The most popular group with Charaxes in Africa, so poorly known and studied (and so much collected) I have to say that African Pieridae is in the same situation (probably worst) I can help and join a group but the group is not existing despite some private collections (I know at least 5 and there are probably more + the Museums) contain all the necessary material ... We had/have the same problem with other popular groups, making a collection YES studying NO ... When (many) collectors said there are making a scientific collection or they are working for science, it is not true (but some play the game to provide material for study ). Some just to have a catalogue of what is existing (probably just to fill their "stamp collection")
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Post by bobw on Mar 5, 2019 9:25:41 GMT
I can help and join a group but the group is not existing despite some private collections (I know at least 5 and there are probably more + the Museums) contain all the necessary material ... We had/have the same problem with other popular groups, making a collection YES studying NO ... When (many) collectors said there are making a scientific collection or they are working for science, it is not true (but some play the game to provide material for study ). Some just to have a catalogue of what is existing (probably just to fill their "stamp collection") This seems very strange to me. Why would anyone go to all the effort and expense of forming a collection if they are not going to study the group they collect?
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Post by africaone on Mar 5, 2019 21:17:43 GMT
I can help and join a group but the group is not existing despite some private collections (I know at least 5 and there are probably more + the Museums) contain all the necessary material ... We had/have the same problem with other popular groups, making a collection YES studying NO ... When (many) collectors said there are making a scientific collection or they are working for science, it is not true (but some play the game to provide material for study ). Some just to have a catalogue of what is existing (probably just to fill their "stamp collection") This seems very strange to me. Why would anyone go to all the effort and expense of forming a collection if they are not going to study the group they collect? many are "stamp collectors" ! may be strange for you ( ) but that is a fact ... In the case of African Papilionidae, there are many collections but can you cite how many papers exist on the subject ? and what to say about other groups as Charaxes, Saturniid, Sphingid, etc. ... phily and ... logy are not the same. Even in Colias that you know better than anyone, how many collections exist and how many collectors bought your book just to know the list of existing names puting a label in the collection box waiting the moment of getting "The" specimen to fill the gap. Do you really think that Ornithoptera are collected for scientific purposes ?
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mac
New Aurelian
Posts: 27
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Post by mac on Mar 6, 2019 0:50:00 GMT
Hi Africaone, although you sound incredibly frustrated with us all it is great to hear you are willing to become part of a group focussed on this issue For us all I am sure there are limiting factors at play, whether this be experience, access to specimens or time, etc but if progress is to be made then positive contributions can surely only help
I know from my own perspective I have built up a collection over many years with a view to utilising this when I retire from work, as a hobby to further my knowledge in this fascinating subject. I have also found that access to decent material has been hard to do as the museums are not close enough to make regular visits viable I also believe that nothing is like the real thing and although books can give a starting point actual specimens are so much better
I am still pursuing the options available to be able to contribute positively to this discussion, and once I have more information I will post my findings For now, and reading between the lines I certainly think it is apparent there is a real lack of understanding across a spectrum of African leps so I look forward to any progress that can be made
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Post by mothylator on Mar 16, 2019 13:10:37 GMT
Just spending a lot of time looking for published data, folks. Re: different P. nireus subspecies: Does anyone have access to good published data including male and female genitalia images we could share? So far, I can only find P. nireus nireus, in Hancock 1984. It seems important to accumulate as much evidence as possible for testing the reasonable null hypothesis that our designated forms P.n.nireus and P.n.lyaeus are conspecific at the western area of overlap. Also, has anyone tried breeding the two forms to see the relative fertility of F1-F3 compared with either form? Are the non-imago phases truly indistinguishable from each other? Btw, Hancock 1984 (pics above) and Kielland 1990 p325-6, together provide a fair insight into the some of the difficulties making reliable diagnostic ID from external features alone amongst several of the thuraui and desmondae subgroup, including P. ufipa.Genitalia examination in that context would seem extremely helpful there for improving accuracy separating phenotypes into definable forms prior to DNA Studies. I don't think this thread is dead, and would like to make progress with genitalia examination and DNA studies if we can.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 16, 2019 16:41:41 GMT
I don't think this thread is dead, and would like to make progress with genitalia examination and DNA studies if we can. Combining the two will be very important. Adam.
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Post by cabintom on Mar 20, 2022 5:18:50 GMT
I've been looking at some older publications (unfortunately, not original descriptions) and Carcasson in The Swallowtail Butterflies of East Africa (1960) states that chrapkowskii (as a ssp. of bromius) has white FW cilia & is a highland species (forest areas above 5000ft = 1500m). Several authors describe it as a higher altitude subspecies found in Uganda & Kenya.
Berger, in Papillons du Zaire has it located in eastern Ituri & North Kivu (where I've found it), but doesn't limit it to high-altitudes.
My "chrapkowskii" (figured in a previous plate... I have collected a few more since) has been found at lower altitudes and has black cilia.
I'm wondering if anyone has specimens of chrapkowskii from high-altitude Kenyan or Ugandan forests? It would be interesting to confirm the cilia colouration.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 20, 2022 17:02:02 GMT
The forewing edge of chrapkowskii is scalloped, not straight. Some specimens have white cilia in the indents between veins, particularly on the forewing, but in others the wing edge is completely black. In some specimens from W Uganda the white scales are obvious, in others they are absent or only present between the lowest forewing veins. My DRC specimens (Kivu Nord) have black wing edges. It also seems that specimens with all black forewing edges have smaller cream submarginal spots on the lower forewing underside, whereas these are larger in specimens with white cilia present on the forewing edges. Here's a photo of my drawer of chrapkowskii: I have one old specimen from "Kayonza, Kigesi" (W. Uganda highland) with exaggerated scalloped wing edges and obvious white fringes inside the indents of the wing edges. (Top specimen 2nd column from left) My specimens from Kenya highlands (right column) also have distinct white wing edges, but are not a deeply scalloped as the Kayonza specimen. It is possible there are two species here, but also it could be variation from east to west with intermediates in central Uganda. Adam.
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Post by cabintom on Mar 21, 2022 11:38:18 GMT
It also seems that specimens with all black forewing edges have smaller cream submarginal spots on the lower forewing underside, whereas these are larger in specimens with white cilia present on the forewing edges. Are there consistent differences in the extent of the ventral HW silver markings?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 21, 2022 15:47:57 GMT
I didn't notice anything obvious.
Adam.
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Post by africaone on Mar 22, 2022 13:50:44 GMT
Hi Africaone, although you sound incredibly frustrated with us all it is great to hear you are willing to become part of a group focussed on this issue For us all I am sure there are limiting factors at play, whether this be experience, access to specimens or time, etc but if progress is to be made then positive contributions can surely only help I know from my own perspective I have built up a collection over many years with a view to utilising this when I retire from work, as a hobby to further my knowledge in this fascinating subject. I have also found that access to decent material has been hard to do as the museums are not close enough to make regular visits viable I also believe that nothing is like the real thing and although books can give a starting point actual specimens are so much better I am still pursuing the options available to be able to contribute positively to this discussion, and once I have more information I will post my findings For now, and reading between the lines I certainly think it is apparent there is a real lack of understanding across a spectrum of African leps so I look forward to any progress that can be made we are working on them with yet some interesting results. Scientific work took time ....
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