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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 28, 2018 15:15:09 GMT
Unfortunately photos of types of almost all of the nireus group taxa are not available. I only have copies of photos of 7 named taxa, and only thuraui, manlius and pulchra are primary types of valid taxa. I am not sure if I have copies of most/all the ODs of taxa in this group or not, I suspect that I probably do.
Adam.
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Post by cabintom on Nov 28, 2018 15:47:18 GMT
Here are links to images of type specimens from the MRAC collection:
EDIT: See Adam's corrections below!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 28, 2018 17:14:38 GMT
Tom,
The specimen pictured in the first link is a paratype of Papilio wilsoni Rothschild, 1926. It is NOT a type of pseudonireus Felder & Felder as stated. Paratypes are not name-bearing types.
The middle link is a male paratype of pulchra Berger (not an "Allotype"), and the bottom link is the holotype, and indeed I obtained these photos from this website.
Adam.
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mac
New Aurelian
Posts: 27
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Post by mac on Nov 28, 2018 18:09:50 GMT
Thanks Bobw, do we know the protocol for posting these images on the site and if it is allowed?. Not sure of the best way forward on this but maybe if all of the images and descriptions were collated in one place or with one person and then posted all in one go this might be a useful way to go?
Apologies in advance if i am suggesting things that are either obvious or not logical.
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mac
New Aurelian
Posts: 27
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Post by mac on Nov 28, 2018 18:20:22 GMT
Adam, I have just seen your reply. so another question if possible. do we know where the type specimens reside and do you or anyone have this info readily to hand? I am just wondering how practical it would be through using peoples contacts within this forum to get hold of some photos of recto versos etc of all of these beasts if they are still in existence. I can appreciate that if some are within private collections it might be a tad more difficult, but if we dont ask as they say then we dont get.
I suppose as per my post before to Bobw, if we could collate all of this stuff and attach descriptions to specimens and hold all of this in one place it would be very useful. I have no problem attempting to coordinate such a venture if people want to participate but i suppose it would need a huge amount of collaboration, and again I am unclear of all of the protocols and I am conscious of stepping on peoples toes
cabintom, thanks for sending these links, and Adam thanks for the corrections. Are we allowed to copy these images into a database for collation and do we have the descriptions to attach to these?
Hope there are not too many questions here but again if this thread is to gain momentum i suppose we all need a direction to work in and a focus.
other thoughts for contribution may well be to build as complete a list of all of the species / ssp and forms that have been described and are classed as valid, so we all have some definatives to work towards?
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Post by deliasfanatic on Nov 28, 2018 18:39:26 GMT
Mike - here's my list showing those that are generally considered valid. There may be disagreement as to whether cyclopis and occidua are subspecies of thuraui or species in their own right.
EDIT: My formatting on this was removed when I posted it, so I've simply indented subspecies lines to distinguish them from full species.
mackinnoni mackinnoni Sharpe 1891 NE Zaire to Kenya and NE Tanzania equatoriana Turlin & Lequeux 2010 S Sudan (Imatong Mts); N Uganda (Kitgum district) karamojae Turlin & Lequeux 2010 NE Uganda (Kaabong district) reductofascia Kielland 1990 N Tanzania (Mt Longido and Meto Hills) mpwapwana Kielland 1990 E Tanzania (Mpwapwa and Kilosa districts) isokae Hancock 1984 W Tanzania; N Malawi; NE Zambia theodori Riley 1921 Shaba, S Zaire; N Zambia chiwomana Turlin & Lequeux 2010 NW Zambia (Chiwoma Forest) benguellae Jordan 1908 C Angola charopus charopus Westwood 1843 Cameroun; Fernando Po juventus LeCerf 1924 NE Zaire (Kibale) to W Uganda ?montuosus Joicey & Talbot 1927 Kivu, Zaire; Rwanda; Burundi ?=juventus hornimani hornimani Distant 1879 NE Tanzania (Usambaras and S Pare Mts) mbulu Kielland 1990 N Tanzania (Mbulu; Oldeani; Ngorongoro; Meru; Kilimanjaro); SE Kenya (Chyulu Hills) mwanihanae Kielland 1987 C Tanzania (Uzungwa Mts: Mwanihana, Kilombero district) oribazus Boisduval 1836 Madagascar epiphorbas epiphorbas Boisduval 1833 Madagascar praedicta Turlin & Guilbot 1990 Grand Comoro guyonnaudi Turlin & Guilbot 1990 Anjouan, Comoros manlius Fabricius 1798 Mauritius phorbanta Linnaeus 1771 Reunion microps Storace 1952 Ethiopia =aethiops (hom.) nireus nireus Linnaeus 1758 Senegal to W Uganda and W Tanzania lyaeus Doubleday 1845 S Sudan to NE South Africa pseudonireus Felder 1865 Ethiopa; Somalia; extreme N Uganda and Kenya wilsoni Rothschild 1926 S Sudan aristophantes Oberthur 1897 Grand Comoro desmondi desmondi van Someren 1939 SE Kenya (Chyulu Hills) teita van Someren 1960 SE Kenya (Teita Hills and Mt Sagala) magdae Gifford 1961 Tanzania (Mt Meru, Arusha and Kilimanjaro) usambaraensis Kocak 1980 Tanzania (Usambaras) to N Malawi and NE Zambia thuraui Karsch 1900 S Tanzania; N Malawi (Misuku Mts) cyclopis Rothschild & Jordan 1903 N Malawi (Nyika Plateau; N Viphya Mts); NE Zambia ufipa Carcasson 1960 SW Tanzania (Ufipa) occidua occidua Storace 1951 NE Zambia; Kassai, S Zaire viphya Hancock 1984 N Malawi (S Viphya Mts) heathi Hancock 1984 S Malawi ?ssp W Malawi (Mt Dedza) chrapkowskoides chrapkowskoides Storace 1952 Rwanda; Burundi; W Uganda nurettini Kocak 1983 Sierra Leone to NW and W Tanzania =bromius Doub. 1845 (hom.) nerminae Kocak 1983 Sao Tome =furvus J&T 1926 (hom.) chitondensis Bivar de Sousa & Fernandes 1966 C Angola chrapkowskii Suffert 1904 C Uganda to Kenya; N Tanzania interjectana Vane-Wright 1995 Uganda to W Kenya =interjecta (hom.) sosia sosia Rothschild & Jordan 1903 Senegal to W Nigeria pulchra Berger 1950 Cameroun to N Angola to Zaire debilis Storace 1951 Uganda; NW Tanzania
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Post by bobw on Nov 28, 2018 19:11:01 GMT
Thanks Bobw, do we know the protocol for posting these images on the site and if it is allowed?. Not sure of the best way forward on this but maybe if all of the images and descriptions were collated in one place or with one person and then posted all in one go this might be a useful way to go? Apologies in advance if i am suggesting things that are either obvious or not logical. Any photos of types (or any specimens for that matter) remain the property of the institution or collection where the specimen resides, it's up to them whether they want to give permission for photos to be posted on a public forum, and if they do they should always be acknowledged. Similarly with papers, they are the copyright of the journal that published them and they probably wouldn't give permission for them to be put on a public forum unless they are open access.
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mac
New Aurelian
Posts: 27
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Post by mac on Nov 28, 2018 21:48:04 GMT
Hmm, thanks Bob, I kind of thought this might be a problem. Do we have any thoughts on a potential workaround for this or are we at an impasse
I still believe it would be useful to get a clear understanding of where the type specimens are housed in case maybe forum members could gain access and or get permissions for images to be taken?
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Post by bobw on Nov 28, 2018 23:39:36 GMT
Certainly you should try to find out where all the type material resides, anyone should really try to establish that for any group they study. However, it's not always easy and often requires some detective work. Obviously the OD is the place to start but specimens change hands, even between institutional collections. Horn & Kahle can help and institutional collections do have a responsibility to make it known what type material they have, but in reality few have the staff or inclination to do so. Some older types will inevitably be lost or untraceable.
Adam said that few of the types of this group are available and I imagine that he's done the research to locate them.
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Post by cabintom on Nov 29, 2018 3:44:59 GMT
Tom, The specimen pictured in the first link is a paratype of Papilio wilsoni Rothschild, 1926. It is NOT a type of pseudonireus Felder & Felder as stated. Paratypes are not name-bearing types. The middle link is a male paratype of pulchra Berger (not an "Allotype"), and the bottom link is the holotype, and indeed I obtained these photos from this website. Adam. I knew you'd have corrections. I didn't know exactly what they'd be, so I figured I'd present the specimens as their website does.
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Post by cabintom on Nov 29, 2018 3:57:54 GMT
charopus charopus Westwood 1843 Cameroun; Fernando Po juventus LeCerf 1924 NE Zaire (Kibale) to W Uganda ?montuosus Joicey & Talbot 1927 Kivu, Zaire; Rwanda; Burundi ?=juventus
Williams, in Afrotropical Butterflies and Skippers has the following note on juventus
juventus Le Cerf, 1924 (as ssp. of Papilio charopus). Bulletin of the Hill Museum, Witley 1: 385 (369-399, 576, 578, 580, 582, 584). Democratic Republic of Congo: “Semliki Valley”. [Invalid; junior primary homonym Papilio juventa Cramer, 1777 [Danainae].]
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Post by africaone on Nov 29, 2018 6:56:23 GMT
It is also possible to create a team to study a group … and share privately infos and photos. Hoping that will come into a revision
It seems that nobody want to study African Papilio … don't undesrtand why as there are so many things to update or to describe Papiliophily seems more develloped than papiliology.
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Post by mothylator on Nov 29, 2018 14:03:40 GMT
Hi Mothylator, obviously you started this thread, so I was wondering in what direction we should take this now Looking at the material presented we appear to have a good representation of specimens in this group which is fantastic to see There seems to be a general consensus that we proceed as you suggest. I'm still starry-eyed-amazed by the material on show. I don;t want to get too carried away yet. But I thought it might be an idea to offer some longer term goals for this project and see how far we can get along the road. I would think if we intend to make this have a permanently useful output, there are four issues to be resolved re: revisions and formal new cladistic relationships: 1. Analysis of the forms and apparent transition zones by phenotype. Also note if there are any "missing" locales and see if anyone like ABRI / Steve Collins for example is able to help with them ... We need to review ODs, and also any good pics of Holotypes if they exist - already underway it seems. 2. Raising new (or restating old) hypotheses as to proposed relationships / splitting / lumping: at intraspecific and between-species levels. 3. Testing these hypotheses by genetic work: 3a) looking back at available published work giving chromosome numbers in any phenotype studies 3b) DNA studies: i) MtDNA vs nDNA, and particularly the possibility of identifying mitochondrial lineage separation due to sweeps of parasitic Wolbachia, with phenotype divergence, and examining whether ancient Wolbachia sweeps could be a cause for divergence, or even identifying possible cryptic taxons. 4. Publishing steps along the way; and creating an open access photolibrary of cladistically probable valid taxons and stable forms / formae locales. This seems like it could become a very important shared vision project, and very timely. ---- Selective sweeps of mitochondrial DNA can drive the evolution of uniparental inheritance. Joshua R. Christie Madeleine Beekman: First published 22 June 2017. Evolution. 2017 Aug;71(8):2090-2099. doi.org/10.1111/evo.13291. Epub 2017 Aug 1 Maculinea rebeli (Hirschke) – a phantom or reality? Novel contribution to a long‐standing debate over the taxonomic status of an enigmatic Lycaenidae butterfly. JUDIT BERECZKI KATALIN PECSENYE ZOLTÁN VARGA ANDRÁS TARTALLY JÁNOS P. TÓTH: First published 21 August 2017 online. Systematic Entomology [open access online] 2018;43(1):166-18 doi: doi.org/10.1111/syen.12259 Male-killing Wolbachia and mitochondrial selective sweep in a migratory African insect Robert I Graham & Kenneth Wilson BMC Evolutionary Biology, 2012;12:204 doi.org/10.1186/1471-2148-12-204
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Post by mothylator on Nov 29, 2018 14:24:00 GMT
Tom, The specimen pictured in the first link is a paratype of Papilio wilsoni Rothschild, 1926. It is NOT a type of pseudonireus Felder & Felder as stated. Paratypes are not name-bearing types. The middle link is a male paratype of pulchra Berger (not an "Allotype"), and the bottom link is the holotype, and indeed I obtained these photos from this website. Adam. ARE all the presently-acknowledged nireus-group species represented by an existing Holotype? Could we list what we know of the locations of same? If not, are there Lectotypes at known locations for them? P. hornimanni mbulu (Kielland, 1990) OD and Holotype pics exist in: Butterflies of Tanzania, Jan Kielland, Hill House Melbourne & London, 1990; also contains line drawings of genitalia of chrapkowskii, chrapkowskoides, thuraui, occidua, cyclopis, ufipa, desmondi usambaraensis.
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Post by mothylator on Nov 29, 2018 15:31:48 GMT
P. charopus Westwood 1845 his latin OD, narrative description, and paintings of Holotype (originally belonging to H Doubleday) - in a secure free access Google ebook location. It's generally held that it was not captured in Gold Coast though (Larsen, 1998, 2005).
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