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Post by nomad on Jan 15, 2018 14:09:28 GMT
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 15, 2018 14:49:33 GMT
Indeed the collecting ban ended in a total disaster... same situation in Brazil by the way.
This article is very true (I would have sticked more to the topic though)
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Post by nomad on Jan 15, 2018 16:54:13 GMT
(I would have sticked more to the topic though) I do not understand, where does he stray from the topic in the article, do you mean where he refers to Erebia christi I liked that bit " The Swiss authorities decided that they needed to build a road through one of the main known colonies of the butterfly, in order to connect a few cottages. No one raised a voice against it. In compensation, the authorities erected a signboard on the site of the extinct butterfly colony reminding passersby that collecting the butterfly attracts a fine of 10,000 francs." Very true and a good picture to accompany this statement.  I believe Peter was trying to point out it is not only India that has some strange laws regarding butterflies. |
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Post by trehopr1 on Jan 15, 2018 17:16:36 GMT
I too would have preferred a more bullet point article indicating first the major issues and then touching a bit on each. But then, it likely would have wound up way too long for an "article" and more of a paper on the subject. India has too many problems at its core to ever be any too concerned about its lesser wildlife (things other than tigers, rhino's and elephants).
The country still has a caste system which it still adheres to. It has a run-away population and is effectively unable to feed itself. Its political system is multi-layered and corrupt throughout. It's rail system and infrastructure is badly gasping for air. The well to do (educated) send their kids to private schooling to become the doctors, lawyers, computer techies, and nuclear scientists the world seems to depend on; while the vast swath of the population goes largely un-educated, forever poor, and only serving as the slave labor of this immense machine.
So with that being said (and well known by most); where is there any possible semblance of concern or order for India's other wildlife? Answer: not in India. It will never happen there.
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Post by luehdorfia on Jan 15, 2018 17:37:06 GMT
It is just sad how dumb people can be, and not only in India as pointed out by nomad. It is fairly the same in Germany, collecting is more or less completely prohibited and frowned upon, but then nobody can really identify butterflies anymore.
Even if a collector would try to completely drive a population of a very localised butterfly to extinction it would be almost an impossible task if you collect only flying adults.
In the Swabian Alps the populations of Zygaena fausta suevica are extremely localised, sometimes only 50 square metres or less. Then I visited an old locality last year that a collector had told me about, and all the localities had been transferred by him to the ministry for nature preservation, and what did I see?Sheep grazing in this locality, because a stupid farmer had extended his portable electric fence for 50 sqm exactly into the location. Since sheep love all coronilla plants the whole locality was completely barren earth...
and another population went extinct, I took photos and sent it to the ministry, they were shocked but then nothing happened.
But just imagine standing in that locality and getting caught with a butterfly net, the outrage would be enormous. It is just sad how dumb this world truly is.
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Post by nomad on Jan 15, 2018 19:08:38 GMT
Britain really frowns on collecting butterflies in any form but they never give you the real reasons why all our butterfly populations declined through intensive agriculture, chemical spraying, destroying all the meadows, planting conifers in all the woodlands. Did anyone complain about that, No. Peter is quite right in his opinion of the attitude of European counties to collecting butterflies.
I admire Peter Smetacek he has remarkable foresight and the courage to say we he believes which is perhaps not usually the case in India. He is the author of A Naturalist's Guide to the Butterflies of India.
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Post by satyrinae on Jan 22, 2018 14:28:57 GMT
To my mind, rules are sheer guidelines and I always collect according to me ethical standards.
1. A species might be very common but protected....collect.
2. A species might be rare as per my standards but not protected....absolute respect and no to minimal collecting
For example E. christii is common if you go abseiling as it prefers to fly on steep rocky south facing sides. There can easily be 100 specimens in a 500sqr meters area. But since it is highly inaccessible, then it is considered as very rare and protected. Very few people can handle a net with one hand and abseil with the other.
The same applies to P. hospiton, a very common and widespread species if you know where and when to find.
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Post by nomad on Jan 22, 2018 21:24:16 GMT
For protected species no matter how common you believe it is, when in a country obey their laws otherwise you could face a huge fine or be peering through prison bars. Some have and quite recently. .... and that includes Cites protected species. It just common sense!
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Post by satyrinae on Jan 23, 2018 9:00:28 GMT
For protected species no matter how common you believe it is, when in a country obey their laws otherwise you could face a huge fine or be peering through prison bars. Some have and quite recently. .... and that includes Cites protected species. It just common sense! CITES should be respected as the ultimate aim is to preserve the species but protection is a subjective term as you can have a species protected in one region but not in another region of the same country or protected in one country but not in another. For example Hyles livornica is protected in some European countries but not in all whereas if I remember correctly in Switzerland every region(canton) has its own protected species. |
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Post by Ed on Jan 27, 2018 2:11:10 GMT
Britain really frowns on collecting butterflies in any form but they never give you the real reasons why all our butterfly populations declined through intensive agriculture, chemical spraying, destroying all the meadows, planting conifers in all the woodlands. Did anyone complain about that, No. Peter is quite right in his opinion of the attitude of European counties to collecting butterflies. I admire Peter Smetacek he has remarkable foresight and the courage to say we he believes which is perhaps not usually the case in India. He is the author of A Naturalist's Guide to the Butterflies of India.
Its quite unfortunate to hear of the stryggles of europes insect collectors. while in the US I experienced some minor setbacks while collecting hairstreaks on a grassy patch at the edge of a river. Typically this location would be quite empty, but due to it being a few hours from a eclipse, there were plenty of people. Despite the crowds I took my net out and started collecting in no time a woman aproached me firmly telling me "you better not be killing butterflies" Has anyone else had such experiences? I found that replying in a foreign language is quite effective, but its effectiveness could be corolated to ones age. Meanwhile here in Asia Ive never encountered any problems with collecting. Ive even collected in a city park with a 5meter net with no harrasments. in fact Instead of being discouraged, im often encouraged by curious bystanders who join me in collecting by acting as my spotters. Sometimes I even get invited for tea,(right luehdorfia?). I do hope the european collecting situation is resolved, if not you could always try asia as im sure youd be welcomed here. Ed |
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Post by luehdorfia on Jan 27, 2018 8:02:21 GMT
Haha yes I remember. Ed was running through the garden and fields of that house and then suddenly an old chinese guys says what are you two doing here, and I just said we are catching butterflies and then he said, oh that’s nice come over and have tea on the terrace with me.
Very friendly guy.
But since I am older than Ed I don’t have the teenager bonus anymore. My strategy is just to talk to the right people, for example in Sichuan I know one of the police chiefs on the province level now, and I asked him if I can go and catch some and then he sends some police officers with me, that’s just as safe as it can get, I just directly go catching with the police!
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Post by Ed on Jan 27, 2018 15:35:25 GMT
that's the way to do it!
Getting someone who can keep you out of trouble is the way to do it.
I never had any problems with police though, probrably because of my age.
I could only imagine the amount of scrutiny a police officer would receive from arresting a "kid" for catching bugs, although I would not be surprised if it did happen considering the ceuntry we live in!
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joee30
New Aurelian
Posts: 31
Country: U.S.A.
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Post by joee30 on Jan 28, 2018 3:04:21 GMT
Britain really frowns on collecting butterflies in any form but they never give you the real reasons why all our butterfly populations declined through intensive agriculture, chemical spraying, destroying all the meadows, planting conifers in all the woodlands. Did anyone complain about that, No. Peter is quite right in his opinion of the attitude of European counties to collecting butterflies. I admire Peter Smetacek he has remarkable foresight and the courage to say we he believes which is perhaps not usually the case in India. He is the author of A Naturalist's Guide to the Butterflies of India.
Despite the crowds I took my net out and started collecting in no time a woman aproached me firmly telling me "you better not be killing butterflies" Has anyone else had such experiences? I found that replying in a foreign language is quite effective, but its effectiveness could be corolated to ones age. -Ed Hi Ed. I have ran into this kind of situation many times. I had a lady threaten to call them cops on me, because I was "poaching" in a city park. I had some other lady throw a cup of iced coffee and go insane while collecting i a desert area near me. Those people are on a high horse that they don't even comprehend. Most of the time, you will either run into people who think you are crazy, or will be curious. |
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Post by Ed on Jan 28, 2018 9:27:47 GMT
Despite the crowds I took my net out and started collecting in no time a woman aproached me firmly telling me "you better not be killing butterflies" Has anyone else had such experiences? I found that replying in a foreign language is quite effective, but its effectiveness could be corolated to ones age. -Ed Hi Ed. I have ran into this kind of situation many times. I had a lady threaten to call them cops on me, because I was "poaching" in a city park. I had some other lady throw a cup of iced coffee and go insane while collecting i a desert area near me. Those people are on a high horse that they don't even comprehend. Most of the time, you will either run into people who think you are crazy, or will be curious. You make a good point Joee30, It seems that some of the more developed countries population becomes disconnected to where their food comes from. I know that in the US massive cornfields are a common sight, and in the super market the chickens come in “nugget form” and the fish come wrapped. Its no surprise that the environment some living in are shielding them from lives reality, but I think it would be unfair to blame them on their point of view. In contrast, here in China I go to the market and the chickens are sold whole or halved (organs included) and sometimes alive, the fish is also sold alive, and the pork is hung from the ceiling and cut right before your eyes. Its difficult to forget where your food comes from here, and this is well reflected in the value of food here… no animal part is wasted. In conclusion, it is not difficult to see why some American’s/European’s may have different reactions than majority of the Asian countries. It all comes down to how much you know of where your food comes from. Ed. |
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Post by nomad on Jan 28, 2018 10:35:25 GMT
It all comes down to how much you know of where your food comes from. Ed. Cannot connect on any level with that statement. Does that apply to the population of India (including all the rural areas) where collecting is usually not permitted!! |
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