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Post by trehopr1 on Nov 25, 2017 17:22:00 GMT
Thank you Hewi for the update on those temperature forms and the publication involving them. I had no idea that these had been produced again or that to this day they are still produced ! That moth species is certainly the correct candidate to use. It's funny I've never seen any being sold on EBay within the last 5 or so years. You would think with the proliferation of U.V. enhanced birdwings going on that this would be something alternative since they are produced differently. I have however, seen temperature enhanced Inachis io and Nymphalis antiopa offered on EBay from time to time over these last 5 years. Perhaps those 2 species are the most readily available to those who dabble in this methodology - I presume. Also, perhaps these Chrysiridia are in fact seen at European fairs which I am unable to attend.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 25, 2017 17:38:57 GMT
Interestingly the horns on the head are not joined together like those of dardanus. Do you have a photo of the pupa of phorcas for comparison?
Adam.
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Post by mcheki on Nov 25, 2017 19:00:57 GMT
Interestingly the horns on the head are not joined together like those of dardanus. Do you have a photo of the pupa of phorcas for comparison? Adam. I do not have a photo of a P phorcas but I can tell you that their pupae also have a double horn. Here is a picture of the adult, taken this afternoon, expanding his wings. By the way, are hybrids like this fertile or sterile?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 25, 2017 20:08:52 GMT
Here's a photo of the head of a dardanus pupa from head on, showing the fused horns: It's a superb leaf mimic. P. dardanus is a great species to breed, lovely larva with interesting behaviour too. Theoretically the hybrids should be sterile, but sometimes male hybrids between closely related species can be successfully paired with a female of one of the parents (a backcross) to produce fertile eggs, whereas a hybrid - hybrid F2 mating produces infertile eggs. Adam.
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Post by mcheki on Nov 26, 2017 11:52:54 GMT
Thank you, Adam, the fertile/ sterile situation is as I thought. I had the chance to hand pair yesterday’s male with one of three remaining dardanus females earlier today. Will have to wait and see what happens to this backcross. The chances of me being able to achieve a hybrid - hybrid mating are slim as the female, I gather, is very rare in hybrids, Having said that the female of P nandina does seem to be periodically produced.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 26, 2017 13:01:59 GMT
That's great, please do let us know whether the dardanus female lays fertile eggs or not. Indeed nandina females are less common than males, but I suspect that no-one has actually really checked to see whether the sex ratio is much lower than normal or not. Maybe now is a good opportunity for you to find out more. Did you get many larvae from the original dardanus x phorcas pairing, and was there a high larval mortality rate?
Adam.
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Post by mcheki on Nov 26, 2017 16:36:19 GMT
To answer Adams question please let me explain the circumstances leading to this hybrid.
At the beginning of August 2017 I purchased 20 pupae of P dardanus, By the end of August I had obtained 120 larvae from these. All larvae were from the black and white form hippocoonides as the original pupae only produced a single coloured female (f: niobe) and no male was available at that time. These larvae pupated towards the end of September. On 30th September I attended AES Exhibition in London and while talking to a gentleman selling pupae of various worldwide species he gave me a single P phorcas pupa as this was the only pupa of this species he had. It later hatched into a male.
So now by pure chance I had a male P phorcas and numerous eclosing dardanus specimens! My point, to answer your question, is that the larvae are the result of five possibly successful hand pairings, each with a different female. All females laid in the same cage. 47 larvae hatched. There was a very high level of infertile ova laid, at least 50% were infertile. Bear in mind this could simply be due to a failed mating and the female still laying rather than infertile ova after a successful pairing. About 36 are still alive in both larval and pupal stages. So in this case is it technically a phorcas x dardanus pairing?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 26, 2017 17:30:49 GMT
If the male phorcas was rested for a couple of days between matings there is no reason why at least two dardanus females could have been successfully mated. As you say, it is impossible to know whether some of the infertile eggs were laid by females which had not mated successfully, or whether they were infertile because of the parentage.
A survival rate of 36 out of 47 larvae hatched is not bad for an interspecific hybrid. In many cases most larvae do not make it through to pupation, but since these two species are closely related there would be less genetic incompatibility.
Since it is normal to state the male parent first it should be a phorcas x dardanus pairing, as you say.
Adam.
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Post by mcheki on Dec 16, 2017 17:09:28 GMT
That's great, please do let us know whether the dardanus female lays fertile eggs or not. Indeed nandina females are less common than males, but I suspect that no-one has actually really checked to see whether the sex ratio is much lower than normal or not. Maybe now is a good opportunity for you to find out more. Did you get many larvae from the original dardanus x phorcas pairing, and was there a high larval mortality rate? Adam.
To continue this breeding research into the hybrid Papilio nandina I can add that from the P phorcas crossing with five female P dardanus that I mentioned earlier 68 ova were laid. All of these proved to be infertile. A further backcross hand pairing with another male nandina and a new female dardanus resulted in 14 ova. All again were infertile. From the original fertile nandina ova there have been 14 adults that have hatched so far. All except one are male. The female is particularly striking as can be seen in this photo taken whilst still on the setting board. There are still a few pupae and three very slow larvae left.
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