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Post by trehopr1 on Nov 19, 2017 3:20:35 GMT
I have to say that I really do admire all those individuals who are fond of breeding things. It takes an awful lot of work, parental care, fortitude, and determination to say the least; to see a generation of anything through to adulthood. And I suppose the rewarding thing is that you did it yourself and learned something (if not many things) along the way. Then there are those individuals who like to step out of the "norm" of typical breeding and experiment in such ways as too produce something never before seen by even the most savy or jaded enthusiast. These individuals walk a different path and tread on ground never before broken. It is through the tireless efforts of these unique individuals (or scientists in their own right) that we have been rewarded with spectacles of insect wonder unknown in the natural world. What I am referring to are some of the most unique bred aberrations or "strains" of insect; seen as of late. Probably the best known and most notable aberration talked about (among lepidopterists) are the famous "Golden Birdwings"; a one time only unique strain based upon Ornithoptera euphorion of Australia. In the end, only a select number of viable adults were produced; the strain died out and the likes have never been seen since. After consulting some literature, I have found that another such one time occurance happened way back in 1928 when one of these scientist/breeders produced a strain of "Color-washed" Urania riphaeus. Once again, only a limited number of viable adults were produced and very few from that strain are present in collections today. A friend of mine actually possessed one of these incredible aberrations for a time; only to sell it off when he was cash strapped. He was only to find out later that the specimen was lost in a home fire along with the individuals collection who had purchased it. More recently, I have seen aberrations based on Parnassius apollo (called wiskotti)/(thank you Adam for the clarification!) which possess the most incredible amounts of red to be seen amongst the Parnassians. Also, a very melanic strain of Papilio androcles seems to of made its appearance rather recently at some of the European fairs in 2016. Such examples commanding $600 price ranges. Additionally, among the Coleoptera folks color strains of Australian Lamprima and P. mulleri abound unlike anything naturally occurring . I don't know if these aforementioned aberrations are in the same league or have the same status as the "Golden Birdwings" or "Color-washed" U.riphaeus but, it is certainly exciting and even tantalizing to think of the possibilities out there thru human endeavor !
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steve
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 53
Country: Australia
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Post by steve on Nov 19, 2017 6:09:57 GMT
Are there any images of that Urania sp. ?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 19, 2017 11:50:40 GMT
Also, a very melanic strain of Papilio androcles seems to of made its appearance rather recently at some of the European fairs in 2016. Such examples commanding $600 price ranges. Those are probably induced by putting freshly moulted pupae in the fridge, the cold-shock causes melanism, but it only works within the first few hours after pupation, and apparently often causes cripples. Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 19, 2017 11:56:44 GMT
PS. This type of melanic aberration also occurs occasionally in nature, usually when a fresh pupa has endured a sudden chill at night. Even in the tropics temperatures can suddenly plummet at certain times of year under unusual conditions. I don't think these are genetic mutations.
I have caught melanic Graphium sarpedon and chironides a very few times in eastern Laos, and a Thai collector caught a single melanic G. evemon albociliatus among many normal ones in southern Laos as well.
Adam.
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Post by nomad on Nov 19, 2017 14:36:03 GMT
Melanism in Lepidoptera can also be genetic, this was proved by Leonard Woods Newman when he successfully was able to breed from a melanic female of Papilio machaon britannicus which turned up in his breeding stock of that butterfly in the June of 1930. The resulting off spring of a normal male and a black female, produced a ratio of fifty fifty, half were normal, while the other were melanics. Some of these melanics were lighter than others, ab. obscura and the black ones ab niger. So sort after were these unobtainable rarities, as the strain died out that certain individuals dyed normal swallowtails and sold them as true melanic examples. You can always tell the fakes, by a quick glance at the body and wings. The wings are too bluish black and the body shows no colouration as in in the true thing and the hairs are matted by the dye, besides so few melanic swallowtail were ever bred or caught in Britain that every example is known and they have all ended up in the British museum and what a sight to behold is that staggering drawer which hold them that I have personally viewed. The Golden euphorion males and the resulting white females at least do occasionally come onto the market times, being in private hands, even if you have to pay around 17,000 euros or more for them. However, just because it does not glitter, it can be gold. Imagine what a true black melanic historic swallowtail would fetch, it would be the Rembrandt of all Lepidoptera.
Another beautiful insect produced by selected breeding was the orange Cinnabar Tyria jacobaeae ab coneyi bred by Robert Watson which he had stock off over many years. A collectors item but there are hundreds of them about, so the price is not that high.
Peter
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jhyatt
Aurelian
Posts: 224
Country: U.S.A.
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Post by jhyatt on Nov 19, 2017 15:45:35 GMT
Personally, I have to admit that while I marvel at the beauty and striking differences shown in some line-bred, hybrid, or temperature or UV-modified specimens (and I appreciate the skill and luck necessary to product them), I don't care to have things like that in my own collection. It would be to me like putting farm animals in the collection - I just can't consider them to be natural history objects. For the same reason I prefer wild-caught specimens to reared examples, even it it means having a collection full of somewhat flightworn or chipped bugs.
Am I alone in this quirky point of view, or are there other purists out there? I'm curious.
Cheers, jh
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Post by nomad on Nov 19, 2017 16:16:02 GMT
I believe there is a big difference in selected bred Lepidoptera as many of those obtained by this method also occurred in wild. For instance several wild adults of the melanic swallowtails were caught and others obtained from wild collected larvae. They are not the same as making an aberration in someones fridge or at the tip of a needle by the use of chemicals. As for UV light Ornithoptera they are just pretty but often expensive fakes.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 19, 2017 17:06:45 GMT
I agree, melanism can be genetic, but in the case of the tropical Graphium species it probably isn't. Here's a photo of a couple of specimens from my latest emergence of selectively bred Papilio memnon agenor on the spreading board. I have been selectively breeding memnon from a single population since 2008 to see how much I can change the natural forms by "unnatural selection". These two are from a couple of my blood lines. The bottom one is a very white agenor with no spots in the hindwings. I have been gradually breeding these with smaller and smaller spots, selecting as best I can, bearing in mind that males all look the same so I can't choose the best males to mate with the best females. As a result a high percentage of the offspring in each generation still have small spots, or only a few spots. Only a few of them are completely spotless like this one. Interestingly a few years ago I crossed specimens of the very white agenor bloodline with the recessive form butlerianus which has a dark forewing with a white streak along the lower edge and a blue hindwing like that of the male and is a mimic of Atrophaneura varuna female. I then took the form butlerianus females resulting from subsequent generations (the first ones appeared as 'grandchildren' of the initial cross, as none of the 'children' were the recessive form, those only appeared again in the next generation) which had some white on the forewings, crossed them with males from my pure form butlerianus bloodline, and selected them further. It is worth noting that despite the close bound characters of the butlerianus "supergene" (see the works of Clarke & Sheppard, 1968 & 1971 and other related studies) I was able to insert the white forewing gene into the butlerianus phenotype, although it is definitely noticeable that it isn't as bright as in the white form agenor. The upper specimen in the photo is a result of this breeding programme. I have been breeding a number of other bloodlines from the same original stock, including very unusual tailed forms. If anyone is interested I have spare specimens of various forms and other Papilionidae, e-mail me for a list. Adam.
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Post by Paul K on Nov 19, 2017 17:25:02 GMT
I agree, melanism can be genetic, but in the case of the tropical Graphium species it probably isn't. Here's a photo of a couple of specimens from my latest emergence of selectively bred Papilio machaon agenor on the spreading board. Adam. Adam, are you sure it is P.machaon agenor ? Paul
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 19, 2017 17:40:10 GMT
Adam, are you sure it is P.machaon agenor ? OOPS, sorry about that, watching football at the same time as writing a post is not a good idea. I have corrected the original. I know why I wrote that, I was thinking about the melanic machaon nomad was writing about.
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Post by nomad on Nov 19, 2017 17:45:53 GMT
The golden O euphorion was a remarkable bit of breeding. Surely if she the breeder was a horticulturist, she would have been awarded a gold medal. That women certainly produced the most remarkable birdwing aberration ever, it's going to take a lot to beat that. It is a wonder after she lost the strain that she did not produce an article in one of the journals and by not writing down her facts, has added to the different myths concerning this episode. Certainly when they come onto the market even at that price they soon are snapped up. I believe I was a little conservative in my price for these, A male was priced at 25,000 euros on ebay.
I got these facts from elsewhere, this strain was produced by a Miss/Mrs Silke Weyland from Cairns. She did breeding for butterfly houses and one morning she looked into her butterfly cages and there was a freshly emerged white O. euporion female. With this white female she was able to produce further specimens. So according to that account the white female originated from a natural aberration. It looks like the male was obtained from selective breeding of a large gold spotted specimen. Its said the strain was killed off to maintain a high price but it may have just weakened, as they eventually do. In another story others besides Weyland were involved in the breeding and the female was also obtained by selective breeding. Albinos of Lepidoptera do occur in the wild but are very rare.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 19, 2017 17:53:07 GMT
Weren't the golden males offspring of the original white female?
Maybe I misunderstood the old story. Pity it was never properly documented.
Adam.
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Post by deliasfanatic on Nov 19, 2017 19:24:42 GMT
I have a strong dislike for "manmade" specimens in general. While I'm very fond of color- and pattern aberrations, that applies only if they are natural, wild-caught specimens. Artificially obtained specimens can certainly be a curiosity and can even have educational value, as Adam's experiments have shown, but selling them commercially at high prices leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I'm thinking particularly of birdwings (both hybrids and minor aberrations), Parnassius "wiskotti", and the endless array of "Frankenconius" that are continually being bred, usually with parents from disjunct areas that could never meet in nature. Lest I forget, Papilio "nandina" is another pet peeve, being bred in Tanzanian butterfly houses from parent stock (P. dardanus and P. phorcas), then offered at high prices, sometimes with the cheeky notation that they are "wild caught" and pretending that it's a true species.
Wild-caught aberrations are quite another matter, and very desirable IMO. The melanic specimens of G. androcles that appeared awhile ago were all wild-caught, BTW: no females among them. I believe there was a temporary enviromental event, such as unusual and sudden temperature change, that triggered a crop of melanic specimens that were collected at one time. Surely there were females among the specimens thus affected, but since androcles females are not commonly collected, that held true for the few melanic specimens that emerged along with the males.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2017 19:26:56 GMT
I think in the past methods have been kept secret, on more than a few occasions for monetary gain, flooding the market with similar looking aberrations devalue unique specimens thus the methods used have been lost forever. I agree with Danny, I too have an immense dislike of artificiality produced abs, produced solely for money and passed off as "wild caught" and the sums commanded for the plethora of UV treated ornithoptera is bordering on insanity, cold treating vanessa atalanta , inachis io and aglais urticae is a bit of fun and produces some extreme forms but they are what they are, a pretty trinket.
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Post by nomad on Nov 19, 2017 19:30:30 GMT
Weren't the golden males offspring of the original white female? Maybe I misunderstood the old story. Pity it was never properly documented. Adam. You may be correct Adam, I have heard so many different versions of this story. According to one, she said that god sent her a gift in the white female, that's in the story where she finds the white female in her breeding cages. I doubt very much if anyone knows the truth, perhaps she enjoyed the air of mystery surrounding her creations. I have seen a pair of these in a collection, the males look yellow rather than golden and I believe it got the latter name by the huge price it attracts. By the way you have bred some pretty special Papilionidae specimens.
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