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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 23, 2017 14:44:14 GMT
Joe,
Welcome to the ICF, it is good to see you here; and thank you for posting your experiences of Bernard, regardless of his beliefs he was very easy to talk to.
Even though most Lepidopterists did not hold the same opinions as him on evolution, the very fact that he was able to publish his alternative opinions is a real positive for the community as a whole. It enabled us to listen to an alternative viewpoint on so many related issues. While most may disagree it is very useful for us all to consider every alternative possibility to help us in our decision-making while studying or even only appreciating the butterflies and moths that he illustrated so well.
Adam.
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Post by bobw on Jan 25, 2017 13:45:53 GMT
Maybe now that he's gone we can stop using those ridiculous and totally incorrect terms he coined, i.e. recto and verso. It would be nice to use the correct terms, i.e dorsal and ventral surfaces or upperside and underside.
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Post by cabintom on Jan 28, 2017 13:42:45 GMT
Maybe now that he's gone we can stop using those ridiculous and totally incorrect terms he coined, i.e. recto and verso. It would be nice to use the correct terms, i.e dorsal and ventral surfaces or upperside and underside. I grew up using "recto / verso" in school (french), referring to either side of a page. I find it much less cumbersome than "upperside/underside".
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 28, 2017 17:19:55 GMT
Yes "recto/verso" has always been used in French entomology. I don't see why you find that "ridiculous" and "incorrect". It is a latin origin as many other terms in entomology. (leg, imago, taxa, genus...)
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Post by bobw on Jan 28, 2017 17:48:17 GMT
Yes "recto/verso" has always been used in French entomology. I don't see why you find that "ridiculous" and "incorrect". It is a latin origin as many other terms in entomology. (leg, imago, taxa, genus...) The reason the terms are incorrect is that their true meaning is to refer to the right-hand and left-hand pages of an open book. If this were to be interpreted for Lepidoptera it means that the dorsal surface of the right-hand wings and the ventral surface of the left-hand wings would be "recto" surfaces, and the dorsal surface of the left-hand wings and the ventral surface of the right-hand wings would be "verso" surfaces! I'd certainly never seen it used before D'Abrera started using it, in fact in one of his books (I can't remember which) he specifically said in the introduction that he was trying to introduce these terms.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 28, 2017 18:26:20 GMT
The reason the terms are incorrect is that their true meaning is to refer to the right-hand and left-hand pages of an open book The words actually come from "this page", and verso for "turned". That's also the use in French, having the sheet of paper in front of oneself, and the side when turning it. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the right and left hand page. Of course in butterflies this can be ambiguous when referring to dorsal and ventral. I myself only use dorsal and ventral in official texts. In common language I may use recto and verso as you could claim that I'm somehow francophone.
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Post by nomad on Jan 28, 2017 18:37:57 GMT
Many of the Lep British books use upperside and underside, simple terms but even a layman will understand those.
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Post by africaone on Jan 28, 2017 19:48:05 GMT
in French recto design the first side (upperside) of a page, and verso the second (underside) of a page (and not right and left ! may be in English ?). A description in french can use this terms without ambiguity. Then I don't see why it is not correct ..... despite ventral and dorsal are more adapted as being biological terms.
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Post by deliasfanatic on Jan 28, 2017 21:56:42 GMT
I see no problem using "recto" and "verso". I've done it for decades, including use of the terms in published descriptions of new taxa; editors of the latter publications surely consider it standard usage or they would have requested a change.
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Post by bobw on Jan 30, 2017 16:29:45 GMT
In the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the standard reference work for the English language, "Recto" is defined as "the right-hand page of the open book", and "Verso as "The back of a leaf in a manuscript or printed book; the side presented to the eye when the leaf has been turned over in a forward direction". The wings of Lepidoptera when viewed on the dorsal surface are hinged like a book so this means that the right-hand wings would be the recto and the left-hand wings the verso.
I had never seen these terms used before D'Abrera started championing them so at the time I looked them up to find the true definition. The fact that they were used incorrectly and the fact that it was D'Abrera who was so keen on them was enough to make me refuse to accept them.
When writing books or papers I always use the terms "dorsal" and "ventral" surfaces, but like all native English speakers, in everyday speech I use "upperside" and "underside".
Bob
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Post by africaone on Jan 30, 2017 17:01:01 GMT
In the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the standard reference work for the English language, "Recto" is defined as "the right-hand page of the open book", and "Verso as "The back of a leaf in a manuscript or printed book; the side presented to the eye when the leaf has been turned over in a forward direction". The wings of Lepidoptera when viewed on the dorsal surface are hinged like a book so this means that the right-hand wings would be the recto and the left-hand wings the verso. I had never seen these terms used before D'Abrera started championing them so at the time I looked them up to find the true definition. The fact that they were used incorrectly and the fact that it was D'Abrera who was so keen on them was enough to make me refuse to accept them. When writing books or papers I always use the terms "dorsal" and "ventral" surfaces, but like all native English speakers, in everyday speech I use "upperside" and "underside". Bob Then we can consider that it is incorrect in English description while correct for a French (and probably more latin language) one ...
These terms are often used in French descriptions and regarding French definition it is totally logic. I note that an author like Steve Collins used these terms in English description ... It may be instructive to make more samples and statistic
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 30, 2017 18:10:00 GMT
Bob is only going to like one of the pdfs I just sent him of my latest papers because recto and verso are used in the figure captions for the new subspecies paper, although not in the text where I used upperside and underside. I think the captions were written by my Japanese co-author who is also one of the editors of the journal, so it seems they like the terms. Adam.
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Post by deliasfanatic on Jan 30, 2017 18:49:51 GMT
Bob is only going to like one of the pdfs I just sent him of my latest papers because recto and verso are used in the figure captions for the new subspecies paper, although not in the text where I used upperside and underside. I think the captions were written by my Japanese co-author who is also one of the editors of the journal, so it seems they like the terms. Adam. Same publication as I used for my papers - so yes, apparently the editors do like it
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jhyatt
Aurelian
Posts: 224
Country: U.S.A.
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Post by jhyatt on Jan 31, 2017 15:00:44 GMT
I've read articles wherein the author uses the term "venter" for the ventral surface of wings. Is this even a real word? Have I missed something? I must admit that it sets my teeth on edge whenever I see the term used.
jh
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 31, 2017 16:47:40 GMT
I received a reply from Gerardo Lamas, to whom I sent my papers so he could record the details, and he said the following: One thing I noticed is that you use "recto" and "verso" to refer to the upper (or dorsal) and under (or ventral) sides of wings. Recto and verso are misnomers introduced by D'Abrera for butterflies, when actually those names are used in book publishing; see here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recto_and_versoI will reply explaining that my co-author, who is also an editor of the journal, used those terms in the captions for the figures but in the actual description I used upperside and underside. Adam.
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