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Post by hewi on Dec 14, 2016 18:45:47 GMT
just newly described:
Ornithoptera rothschildi janetae Jakusch, 2016
"Eine neue Unterart von Ornithoptera rothschildi KENRICK, 1911 von Sibjo, Irian Jaya, Indonesien (Lepidoptera: Papilionidae)" in: Entomologische Zeitschrift, Band 126, Heft 4, p. 221-223, Dezember 2016
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Post by nomad on Dec 15, 2016 7:21:50 GMT
As the nominate occurs in the Arfak Mountains, do you know the location of Sibjo?
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Post by hewi on Dec 15, 2016 9:37:15 GMT
after the description the village of Sibjo is situated south of the Anggi Lakes at 1500 m altitude.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 15, 2016 15:36:39 GMT
So it's the same general area as the type locality of the nominate subspecies (Mount Koberai, Arfak Mts.), except at the far south of the same range of mountains. I look forward to seeing the paper to learn more.
Adam.
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Post by nomad on Dec 15, 2016 19:51:06 GMT
I look forward to seeing a specimen.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 15, 2016 20:57:20 GMT
Manfred (hewi) and Jens Jakusch both kindly sent me copies of the paper, so I am reproducing fig. 5 here in small version to show the difference between ssp. rothschildi and ssp. janetae according to the description. rothschildi is on the left and janetae on the right, basically rothschildi is darker than janetae. d'Abrera (2003) illustrates the figures from the original description of rothschildi and 2 males from Angi Lakes [sic] which look intermediate between the holotype of janetae and rothschildi. Possibly janetae and rothschildi represent two extremes of a cline from the northern to southern ends of the range, but without seeing a large series from various places I wouldn't like to make a definitive statement on this. Adam.
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phalaecus
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Post by phalaecus on Dec 16, 2016 6:12:03 GMT
It really seems unlikely that a strong flier as O. rothschildi may have differentiated into two subspecies in two localities which are about 20 km far from each other. I have not read the article (and I'd love to get the PDF), but I have the impression that another synonym has been added to the long taxonomic list of the genus Ornithoptera s.l. My series of O. rothschildi, all coming from nearly the same area, show a quite high degree of variability, even if I admit that most tend to be more melanic.
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phalaecus
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Post by phalaecus on Dec 16, 2016 11:32:07 GMT
After my comments, I received the PDF from either Adam and Jens. Even if the article is in German (language difficult to understand for me), I will try to translate the text to understand which characters have been used. I believe, however, that the different opinions expressed by me on the validity of the subspecies depends on the different concept of subspecies applied. Jens emphasizes the different altitude to which the two subspecies are feudalised, and the morphological stability of the examined series. Personally I am at most inclined to consider both populations as being different ecological forms (or ecophenotypes, if you prefer), as I adopt as a concept of subspecies that used by Braby et al. 2012 "We recommend that, under the general lineage (unified) species concept, the definition of subspecies be restricted to extant animal groups that comprise evolving populations representing partially isolated lineages of a species that are allopatric, phenotypically distinct, and have at least one fixed diagnosable character state, and that these character differences are (or are assumed to be) correlated with evolutionary independence according to population genetic structure." This definition emphasizes the concept of "evolutionary independence", which is, in my opinion, the absence or at least substantial reduction of gene flow. This "evolutionary independence" seems to me unlikely in two populations (rothschildi rothschildi and rothschildi janetae) so close each other, and with apparent absence of ecological barriers between them.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 16, 2016 17:29:49 GMT
Jens has kindly e-mailed me to provide some information in English about the differences between janetae and rothschildi. Here is what he wrote for the information of people here like me who cannot read German:
I have a serie of 13 examples, which took me some time to collect them. I myself was als very critical with this "new apperance" but when I got more and more examples, it shows more and more that the diffenreces are stabil (in both sexes). ALL (!!!) looks quite the same than the holotype. It is amaizing how stabil the apperance is between these examples (even rothschildi is very variable). If you put in a box 100 pieces of rothschildi and one pice of janetae, you will find it with one view very easily, what is janetae and what is rothschildi. I read alreaddy the comment of Maurizio, who is "quite critical" with this, but I´m really 100% sure that this is a new (first) subspecie ! Maurizio is right that rothschildi is a strong flyer. He is also right that rothschildi is extreme variable, BUT one of the most amaizing point which make the subspecie new is the apperance of the body. Most describers only take care on the structure of the wings and the coloration but becasue of the apperance of the body from rothschildi janetae, it can be very easily separated from the nominate subspecie. For you, I give you a short list, what is completly different from the nominate (all is mentioned in the describiton). - much less hair on every part of the body (shorter hairs and less haris). I think this is the result becasue this subspeice is flying much more "geographically down" than the nominate. - more yellow coloration on the body - all eyes of the new ssp are white rounded (as all the other Schoenbergias have). The nominate mostly don´t have this, or if it has, it is very small. Janetae have very bright white rounded eyes. - the stigmatas at the abdomen are black rounded. The nominate ssp. don´t have this. All mentioned points are stabil in the complete Paratype-serie. And beside of this: there are many other points in markings, coloration etc. on the wings, where you can separate janetae very easily from rothschildi. Maurizio is right that the localities are not so far from each other, but the altitute is different. Most nominates are from a altitue of 1800 - 2400m. The highest point for janetae is 1500m ! And 20km, distance can be a "big distance" in the tropics when these 20km have a difference of several 100meters altitude ! So maybe there is the posiblity that single examples of rothschildi will come down to Sibjo and single examples of janetae will fly up, but the most amaizing reason is that the population in Sibjo really looks different (and maybe also differnet in behavior becasue of the less altitude; but this is a hypothesis on my side) than rothschildi.... and is STABIL in apperance !!! All variations in rothschildi don´t appear in janetae (so far as I knew). And: Maurizio himself give in his argumentation that janetae is something different: he pointed out that rothschildi tent to me melanistic. This I can´t see in the apperance of janetae. Janetae tent to be more "colorfull" and more "turquoise" in coloration than melanistic.
I have posted this without formatting or correcting spellings, as I think it is better to read Jens' own words. It is a pity he didn't include an English summary of the differences in the original description, as that would have been very useful for readers who might otherwise be very sceptical.
I must say that if the differences Jens has listed are stable and there is this distinct altitudinal habitat difference, then it could well be a distinct subspecies. It will be interesting to see whether janetae can be found in other locations than just the type locality.
Adam.
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phalaecus
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Post by phalaecus on Dec 16, 2016 19:09:31 GMT
Pleasant exchange of views with Adam and Jens is an example of how the calm discussion ports to clarify doubts and misgivings. After reading the detailed message posted by Jens, with an indication of which differences he observed between the two taxa, I too, like Adam, am more inclined to accept his taxonomic decision.
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papalidar
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Post by papalidar on Dec 16, 2016 23:07:38 GMT
I have received pictures of a pair from Isim or Ingsim (south of Arfak) photo Agusyanto Hasan
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papalidar
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Post by papalidar on Dec 16, 2016 23:08:37 GMT
and the female (very yellow)
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Post by nomad on Dec 17, 2016 7:37:45 GMT
Very nice. It would be good to compare a set pair of sp. rothschildi and ssp. janetae together, showing both the recto and verso.
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papalidar
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Post by papalidar on Dec 17, 2016 8:59:59 GMT
S rothschildi is very variable in size too: see a giant on the picture
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Post by africaone on Dec 17, 2016 9:43:19 GMT
Jens has kindly e-mailed me to provide some information in English about the differences between janetae and rothschildi. Here is what he wrote for the information of people here like me who cannot read German: ..... I must say that if the differences Jens has listed are stable and there is this distinct altitudinal habitat difference, then it could well be a distinct subspecies. It will be interesting to see whether janetae can be found in other locations than just the type locality. Adam. Following what you explain (I didn't read the paper), I think more for two different species or two different forms than subspecies.
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