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Post by albugcatcher on Nov 17, 2016 1:38:01 GMT
I have been pondering this for some time. What makes a butterfly change from what it once was to something that looks much different. I understand this evolution takes millions of years. I understand that butterflies mimic distasteful species in order too "not get eaten by birds and anything else that prey upon them".
Some Chilasa species mimic the distasteful Euploea while others try to look like Alcides moths. I am wondering how they decide what they want to copy and how it actually happens, i mean butterflies don't have a brain as we know it ?
May be Adam Cotton has an answer.
Al.
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Post by wollastoni on Nov 17, 2016 2:43:29 GMT
Indeed they don't decide it.
As us humans we don't decide to have a black skin full of melanin when we live in sunny countries.
It is all about natural selection and evolution. Species constantly evolves with small genetic mutations. Some of this mutations give an advantage to some specimens, those specimens have more chance to survive and theirs genes are tramsmitted to the next generation.
With butterflies who have a new generation every 6 months and who are highly impacted by natural selection, the evolution process goes faster
Olivier
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Post by albugcatcher on Nov 17, 2016 4:48:38 GMT
You are right in what you have said and i understand the concept of genetic mutation changing things for advantage, however it seems like their is more going on than randomly changing. I mean some of these mimics look so similar to the butterfly they are trying to copy that most humans would not know the difference.
It's just amazing that for a butterfly to have more chance to survive it can change into something that looks like something it is not. I guess time changes everything.
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Post by deliasfanatic on Nov 17, 2016 5:02:23 GMT
You've touched on one of my favourite subjects...no time for an extensive post at the moment, but I'll post a link to an excellent online resource: www.mimeticbutterflies.org/It contains a lot of useful and very interesting information, along with many good illustrations. The section on Papilio dardanus is particularly interesting (especially to me, it being my favourite butterfly species!).
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Post by mcheki on Nov 17, 2016 10:48:45 GMT
You've touched on one of my favourite subjects...no time for an extensive post at the moment, but I'll post a link to an excellent online resource: www.mimeticbutterflies.org/It contains a lot of useful and very interesting information, along with many good illustrations. The section on Papilio dardanus is particularly interesting (especially to me, it being my favourite butterfly species!). Thanks for the link. I was not aware of this one so I will enjoy exploring it. I agree that P dardanus is an extremely interesting species and I also consider it a favourite.
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Post by wollastoni on Nov 17, 2016 12:57:51 GMT
You are right in what you have said and i understand the concept of genetic mutation changing things for advantage, however it seems like their is more going on than randomly changing. I mean some of these mimics look so similar to the butterfly they are trying to copy that most humans would not know the difference. The mutations are random but the result is not. The result, that you see today with your eyes, is the results of millions of generations of natural selection --> improving slightly generation after generation the patterns until the perfect results of today.
The famous example of the peppered moth, Biston betularia in England is a simple example to better understand the process. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth See the "Evolution" paragraph. Specimens did not "choose" to be white or black, genetic mutation did it and natural selection make one form thrive and the other diminish.
Genetic selection (both natural or human-made) is a very powerful tool to change patterns, sometimes even fastly.
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Post by albugcatcher on Nov 18, 2016 12:17:23 GMT
Very Very interesting that is what i love about this forum, so many knowledgeable folk on here. Thanks wollastoni
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Post by jshuey on Nov 21, 2016 14:00:41 GMT
There are two books that I recommend if you have an interest in mimicry.
100 Butterflies:Portraits from the Tropical Forests of Costa Rica AND 100 Caterpillars: Portraits from the Tropical Forests of Costa Rica – by Jeffrey C. Miller (Author), Daniel H. Janzen (Author), Winifred Hallwachs (Author)
These authors especially - Janzen and Hallwachs, have deep knowledge of evolutionary biology and natural history. The text that accompanies each "portrait" typically includes a discussion of the evolutionary pressures that shape appearance. From traditional Bastian and Mullerian mimicry - to the factors that drive convergence butterflies that are impossible to catch (eg model genera - Astraptes, Adelpha), to cryptic patterns (eg saturniids) to snake head caterpillars, it's all here in text that explains and illustrates how mimicry and crypsis works to increase survival.
These books are almost free on Amazon - but worth full price.
John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 3:28:26 GMT
Ok folks, there has been some ongoing discussion about the Kaiser-I-Hind (Teinopalpus imperialis) mimicking the king of the jungle. The common name translates to "Emperor of India", and it is fitting to see these two creatures sharing the same watering hole. A perched male at lower levels of the forest, in a clump of grass for example, may resemble a tiger in the grass as well. Although this species is known to inhabit the upper levels of the canopy, they must come down sometime. A little incentive to spur conversation
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Post by Paul K on Dec 16, 2016 3:49:02 GMT
Ok folks, there has been some ongoing discussion about the Kaiser-I-Hind (Teinopalpus imperialis) mimicking the king of the jungle. The common name translates to "Emperor of India", and it is fitting to see these two creatures sharing the same watering hole. A perched male at lower levels of the forest, in a clump of grass for example, may resemble a tiger in the grass as well. Although this species is known to inhabit the upper levels of the canopy, they must come down sometime. A little incentive to spur conversation
I don't think Teinopalpus imperialis is mimicking tiger. They both rather camouflage to the surroundings-tall grass, reddish brown ground. Paul
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Post by deliasfanatic on Dec 16, 2016 3:49:28 GMT
Photoshop
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Post by trehopr1 on Dec 16, 2016 6:43:11 GMT
Indeed deliasfanatic ! I spotted that right away. Hardly believable that one would ever find Teinopalpus mud puddling --- much less in numbers !
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Post by Paul K on Dec 16, 2016 7:47:44 GMT
Photoshop Indeed it is !!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 16:32:01 GMT
It would have been much more offensive if I would have taken the time to make a believable result. Unfortunately I am thousands of miles away and will most likely not get the chance to study them in person, so like I said, to spur conversation. Turn those frowns upside down, I believe there is room for a little comedy.
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Post by jshuey on Dec 16, 2016 18:22:36 GMT
It would have been much more offensive if I would have taken the time to make a believable result. Unfortunately I am thousands of miles away and will most likely not get the chance to study them in person, so like I said, to spur conversation. Turn those frowns upside down, I believe there is room for a little comedy.
Comedy aside, for this type of mimicry to work, you need to have three actors playing on the same stage. I'm guessing that you are looking for a "startle response" where a would be predator stumbles onto the butterfly, gets a quick scare, giving the butterfly just enough time to get away. The mimic, the model, and the "predator" all need to hang out in areas where they interact. And generally there needs to be an element of surprise - because birds aren't stupid and if given enough time, will figure things out. Your comedy scenario is that you've taken a butterfly that does not often come down to earth, put it in a setting where it is visible to any potential predator within miles, and it's going to scare them how? (because it looks like a five centimeter tall tiger)?
Some resemblances are just coincidence.
Take a look here to see a startle caterpillar (ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/491515/a-caterpillar-that-looks-and-acts-like-a-snake.html). Imagine a bird flitting from limb to limb when it gets close to an otherwise cryptic caterpillar. The cat quickly flips over becoming a snake head, the bird craps its pants and gets the hell out of there... (because who eats birds in the tropics by ambushing them when they get too close???).
This resemblance (and behavior) is not coincidence - and caterpillars with "snake-eyes" are pretty common.
I recommended 100 cats and 100 butterflies above in this thread. Thjs is literally what these books are all about - portraits of cats and leps, with a discussion of why they look like they do (especially relative to mimicry). (also great discussion on hostplants and habitats in Costa Rica).
John
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