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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 7, 2016 14:54:34 GMT
Very rarely seen and commanding a high price usually, all of a sudden there are 3 male specimens of " miokensis " up for auction, I don't know what the rest of you think but only the Kurt Rumbucher labelled specimen seems correct, the size, shape and markings on the hindwings of the other 2 seem to me to be urvillianus, although all 3 look very blue, I would like to have seen the other specimen in the photo of the Rumbucher specimen, the colour is more miokensis to me. I appreciate they are a hybrid and colour, shape etc varies from specimen to specimen but then so does urvillianus and anyone can try selling urvillianus as miokensis, it would have to be a stand out specimen to get my bid, specimens I've seen (not many for sure) are more bornemanni wing shape and not as deep blue colouration. I may be completely wrong, but I'll certainly be keeping my money in my pocket.
There is also a pair of O.p.boisduvali starting at 2,500 (not sure if it was $ or €) l've just checked and it's £'s
Rich
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 7, 2016 15:03:59 GMT
You can see those 3 Ornithoptera "miokensis" here : TOP INSECT AUCTIONS
It seems to me a bad commercial practice to sell all of them the same week. Bids will focus on the best one, and I agree with Rich that the one from Kurt Rumbucher seems genuine.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 7, 2016 15:31:38 GMT
I guess that if the auctions of the two specimens that seem less reliable end after the one that people think seems genuine (I don't want to give any opinion on the reliability of any of them myself) then some of the failed bidders on the first specimen will start bidding on the other two specimens after the first one has ended. It actually seems a good tactic to list one soon after an apparent genuine one, especially if the 2nd and/or 3rd ones may be a bit 'dodgy'.
Has anyone noticed whether the sellers appear kosher (I haven't checked) or just some of those sellers who already have a bit of a reputation?
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 7, 2016 15:42:02 GMT
The 3 sellers seems kosher as you said.
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 7, 2016 15:48:17 GMT
They could have bought them as legit miokensis themselves and they may be, I've also spotted a O.p.demophanes specimen for sale with data as Biak island (teucrus territory). The boisduvali pair look the real deal for me.
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 7, 2016 15:55:07 GMT
I notice that the specimen that people particularly think is genuine is supposedly "Kurt Rumbucher leg.". Did he actually catch it himself (which is what 'leg.' implies) or is it really "ex Coll. K. Rumbucher"?
Adam.
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Post by africaone on Oct 7, 2016 17:52:19 GMT
I notice that the specimen that people particularly think is genuine is supposedly "Kurt Rumbucher leg.". Did he actually catch it himself (which is what 'leg.' implies) or is it really "ex Coll. K. Rumbucher"? Adam. leg comes from legare in latin ... doens't mean Something like "given to someone" ?
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 7, 2016 19:12:55 GMT
I likewise agree with Rich's remarks about those specimens. Only the one appears reasonably legitimate. The other two look more like urvilleanus. I was always under the impression that miokensis for the most part has some measure of green present with the blue overall; along with it's specific locale. I know that if I was in the market for one than the specimen I'd want would have to have that green/blue coloration along with proper location data. Otherwise, my cash would stay close at hand.
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mosca1
Junior Aurelian
Posts: 81
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Post by mosca1 on Oct 7, 2016 20:32:22 GMT
I likewise agree with Rich's remarks about those specimens. Only the one appears reasonably legitimate. The other two look more like urvilleanus. I was always under the impression that miokensis for the most part has some measure of green present with the blue overall; along with it's specific locale. I know that if I was in the market for one than the specimen I'd want would have to have that green/blue coloration along with proper location data. Otherwise, my cash would stay close at hand. trehopr1 and Rich - you are both wise beyond your years!!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 7, 2016 21:20:58 GMT
leg comes from legare in latin ... doens't mean Something like "given to someone" ? No, "leg." is short for "legit" which means "he/she/it collected" See entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/frank/kiss/kiss5.htm for some abbreviations and their meanings. Adam.
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Post by nomad on Oct 8, 2016 5:29:39 GMT
The trouble with miokensis is that it is really a hybid between O. p. urvillianus and O. p. bornemanni from the neighbouring islands, thus is is not a stable taxon. Only yesterday I viewed three genuine Duke of York Island miokensis , two showing that lovely turquoise colour (hybrid) and one blue example as in urvillianus. So as regards the latter colour form without catching one yourself on the Duke of York island it was be impossible to tell. A captured specimen may have possibly just arrived from New Ireland, so at home urvillianus, reaching the Dukes for a visit miokensis . urvillianus from some of the Solomon islands are shooting up in price especially on ebay . In in doubt you can buy my old urvillianus, has a bit of a greenish tinge to it, much cheaper than those ebay prices.
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Post by Paul K on Oct 8, 2016 9:16:10 GMT
Maybe my vision is not so good but honestly i don't see a differance between all specimens of urvillianus and miokensis placed on eBay rather then some variation. If I would have to pay $500.00 for specimen because some one I don't know is telling me is genuine, I am sorry but I am not that naive. I have O.p.urvillianus from old IFTA for $15.00 a pair and It is good for me, I don't have to live with doubts if it genuine or I paid big money for common specimen. Here is mine, I don't know where it comes from other than from IFTA. It is turquoise too. Is it urvillianus or miokensis ? Paul
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Post by nomad on Oct 8, 2016 9:55:45 GMT
I noticed your box seems a little crowded but super specimens . That's the trouble with birdwings they are so darn big and take up a lot of room.
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Post by timmsyrj on Oct 8, 2016 13:50:12 GMT
Nice specimens Paul, the specimen below your urvillianus (which if from IFTA would be from Bougainville or the tiny island of Buka to the north) looks like O.p.bornemanni from New Britain island, these two are the parents of miokensis, true specimens of miokensis that I have seen have similar wing shape to the bornemanni specimen and colour intermediate between the two, I have seen bluer bornemanni and some specimens of urvillianus from New Ireland are greener than usual. We have seen many dubious specimens from Japan over the years which are supposed to be something different or special from remote areas etc (japanotypes) it would be easy to call a smaller urvillianus or bluer bornemanni miokensis. I am surprised though with all the man made hybrids of Ornithoptera being produced we haven't seen an influx of miokensis being produced, I have seen a euphorion x urvillianus male and that was a fantastic green blue colour. Even personally collecting one on Mioko or Ulu you couldn't be 100% sure it was a hybrid or a visitor as Peter has said.
You pay what you believe is the right price for the specimen you see.
Rich
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papalidar
New Aurelian
Posts: 23
Country: France
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Post by papalidar on Oct 8, 2016 19:16:11 GMT
my male miokensis =see the color! Jacques
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